Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Bronx Aerosol Arts Documentary Project Description An account of the resource The Bronx Aerosol Arts Documentary Project is a collaboration between Kurt Boone, veteran documentarian of urban culture in New York City, and Dr. Steven Payne, librarian and archivist at The Bronx County Historical Society. The project aims to document the early years of the graffiti arts movement in The Bronx through recording oral histories and collecting tags from surviving Bronx pioneers of the art form. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bronx Aerosol Arts Documentary Project Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boone, Kurt BUTCH 2 Crespo, Pastor, Jr. Payne, Steven Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource CC-BY-NC-SA (Creative Commons) Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context OH-BAADP Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. OHMS Object Embedded OHMS XML file https://oralhistory.bronxhistoricalsociety.org/viewer.php?cachefile=OH-BAADP.20220118.xml Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:41:45 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Boone, Kurt Payne, Steven Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed BUTCH 2 Location The location of the interview The Bronx, NY Interview Format Audio or Video Video OHMS Content Content of OHMS Index/Transcript for searching (Hidden) 5.4 Interview with BUTCH 2 OH-BAADP.20220118 01:41:45 OH-BAADP Bronx Aerosol Arts Documentary Project Bronx Oral History Center This interview made possible through the donation of Stephen DeSimone, President/CEO of DeSimone Consulting Engineers. bxoralhistory BUTCH 2 Payne, Steven Boone, Kurt MP4 butch-2-oral-history-2022-01-18.mp4 5:|222(8)|428(7)|578(3)|822(11)|1104(13)|1332(7)|1551(5)|1805(5)|2098(12)|2357(1)|2575(10)|2822(8)|3066(14)|3283(2)|3494(11)|3685(5)|3877(6)|4076(3)|4307(2)|4515(1) Undefined 1 https://youtu.be/AF91enQGgec YouTube video English 0 Introduction Steven Payne: Welcome to the first oral history of the Bronx Aerosol Arts Documentary Project. My name is Steven Payne, librarian and archivist at the Bronx County Historical Society. Kurt and Pastor, why don't you introduce yourselves briefly before we introduce the main event, our guest here? Kurt Boone: OK, I, I'm Kurt Boone. Native New Yorker, and I've been writing about urban culture for 40 years. Pastor Crespo: I'm Pastor Crespo, and I'm a volunteer here at The Bronx County Historical Society. Steven Payne: Alright, thank you, and we're really excited to be here today with the art legend, BUTCH 2, who came of age in The Bronx during the 1970s and first achieved fame as a writer for his mastery of wild-style lettering design and is a member of The Fantastic Partners (TFP) . . . In this segment Dr. Steven Payne, librarian and archivist at The Bronx County Historical Society, introduces the interviewee, BUTCH 2, and asks the other interviewers, Kurt Boone and Pastor Crespo, to introduce themselves. Bronx (New York, N.Y.);Butch 2 (Graffiti artist);Graffiti artists;Lettering in art;The Fantastic Partners (Graffiti artists group) 0 61 Family History and Early Years Steven Payne: So, why don't you tell us a little bit about your family's history and background and how they ended up in The Bronx? BUTCH 2: Me? Born and raised in The Bronx, 1960. My father's from Georgia. Steven Payne: Sure. BUTCH 2: August, Georgia . . . In this segment, BUTCH 2 talks briefly about his family history and background, his earliest memories of The Bronx, how graffiti first caught him when his family moved to Hunts Point, his first forays into art in school, and his early encounter with graffiti culture. Graffiti;Hunts Point (The Bronx, N.Y.);J.H.S. 123 (The Bronx, N.Y.);Markers;Tagging;Third Avenue El;Whitlock Avenue (The Bronx, N.Y.) African Americans--Georgia;Art & arts;Graffiti;Migration, Internal--United States--History--20th century;Railroads, Elevated;Subways 0 258 Choosing the Name BUTCH 2 BUTCH 2: . . . everybody had a graffiti name, everybody, just like when rap first started, everybody had a rap name . . . Bozo the Clown (Fictitious character);Butch 2 (Graffiti artist);Rap (Music) Graffiti;Hip-hop 0 376 Growing Up in Hunts Point Kurt Boone: You were showing me the other day about, we talked a little bit about, you know, the movie Fort Apache, you wasn't really into it . . . In this segment BUTCH 2 talks about his time growing up in the Hunts Point section of The Bronx. He touches on his brief foray into gang life through the "junior" gang, the Young Javelins and how his creativity kept him away from gang life and got him into Music and Art High School in Manhattan. He also speaks about the various things that he would do for fun around the neighborhood, including tackle football in the streets, baseball, stickball, and other street games, as well as the music that he remembers hearing in his neighborhood (before hip-hop) and his first introduction to drug culture in high school. Baseball;Bruckner Boulevard (The Bronx, N.Y.);Dewitt Clinton High School (New York, N.Y.);Football;Fort Apache (Motion picture);High School of Music and Art (New York, N.Y.);Minnesota Vikings (Football team);Savage Nomads (Gang);Savage Skulls (Gang);Seven Immortals (Gang);Simpson Street (The Bronx, N.Y.);Stickball;Stylistics (Musical group);Sunoco (Firm);Wild style (Graffiti);Young Javelins (Gang) Football;Games;Gangs--United States;Genre, music and sound;Graffiti;Hunts Point (The Bronx, N.Y.) 0 886 Time at Music and Art High School BUTCH 2: Later on, I really realized, I try to call Music and Art like the cousins to Art and Design. Steven Payne: OK, yeah. BUTCH 2: But it's really not. We took, we had art classes and we had projects to do, but Music and Art was really for performing arts . . . In this segment, BUTCH 2 talks about his time at Music and Art High School in Manhattan and touches more on drug culture at the school, which he mostly avoided because of his devotion to the graph. He also mentions a teacher of his from J.H.S. 123 in The Bronx who did not believe that he could make it into this specialized high school and remembers painting his first piece in junior high. Graffiti;Homework;J.H.S. 123 (The Bronx, N.Y.) Drug use;Graffiti;High School of Music and Art (New York, N.Y.);Public schools;Subways in art 0 1236 Early Experience Writing on the 6 and 2/5 Lines BUTCH 2: It was easy to, I mean, if you're like a daredevil it's easy. Because we would have to go up and, and go on the tracks and, and step up on the third rail. Steven Payne: Yeah. BUTCH 2: It's been some fatalities through the years . . . In this segment BUTCH 2 discusses his early experience writing along the 6 line in The Bronx and his decision to graduate to the 2/5 line. 2 Seventh Avenue Express;5 Lexington Avenue Express;6 Lexington Avenue Local;<6> Pelham Bay Express;Subway tunnels Graffiti;Police--New York (State)--New York;Subways--Accidents;Subways--Graffiti;Subways--New York (State)--New York 0 1413 Memories of Food and Family Steven Payne: What are some things that you remember eating in your household while growing up? BUTCH 2: [Inaudible] My mom does cook. My mom's a good cook. Sundays, I think, we, by 2 o'clock in the afternoon we were eating dinner . . . In this segment BUTCH 2 remembers various traditions around food and cooking in his family while growing up. He also talks about visiting his father on Webster Avenue after his parents split and living near his grandmother on Clay Avenue. He touches briefly on his relationship with family members outside of New York. Augusta (Ga.);Clay Avenue (The Bronx, N.Y.);Creamed corn;Fried chicken;Meatloaf;Onions;Spaghetti;Sunday dinner;Webster Avenue (The Bronx, N.Y.) African Americans--Georgia;Cooking 0 1624 Learning Style Lettering Steven Payne: Kurt, why don't you go ahead and, and start asking some more questions about . . . Kurt Boone: I wanted to kind of like: you, you graduated from Music and Art? BUTCH 2: No I didn't . . . In this segment, after touching on his incarceration as a 17-year old, earning his GED, and attending Bronx Community College, BUTCH 2 gets into a discussion of style lettering. He talks about individual letters he was particularly drawn to, various sources of inspiration for his lettering design, and the process he went through of learning how to use a spray paint can as a paintbrush. Arthur Avenue (The Bronx, N.Y.);Calligraphy;Caps (Spray paint cans);GED tests;Highschool of Music and Art (New York, N.Y.);Phase 2 (Graffiti artist);Pressure (Spray paint cans);Red Devil (Spray paint firm);Sketch pads;Stan 153 (Graffiti artist);Style writing (Graffiti) Bronx Community College;Comic books, strips, etc;Graffiti;Graffiti artists;Inspiration in art;Lettering in art;Prisons--United States;Spray paint;Tools in art 0 2193 Painting Whole Subway Cars Kurt Boone: . . . whole car. BUTCH 2: It's a production, man. Production's just a—gotta have a theme. Steven Payne: Yeah. BUTCH 2: Sometimes you have to have a blueprint. Steven Payne: Yeah, yeah. BUTCH 2: Yeah. It's, it's really obvious. And then you gotta have the paint . . . In this segment BUTCH 2 discusses what went into painting whole subway cars, both by himself and with a crew. He also speaks about the first time he painted a whole car, when he was 12 or 13, his favorite spot to paint whole cars by himself, and the strategies that were involved in the process. 2 Seventh Avenue Express;225th Street (Subway station);233rd Street (Subway station);3D (Graffiti);5 Lexington Avenue Express;6 Lexington Avenue Local;<6> Pelham Bay Express;Case 2 (Graffiti artist);Layup (Graffiti);Outlines (Graffiti);Whole cars (Graffiti);Yard (Graffiti) Graffiti;Subway stations;Subways--New York (State)--New York 0 2430 Racking and Getting Supplies Kurt Boone: Tell us about racking, because, you know, there's a lot of stories about how artists got their paint. People would do, young, young artists would do different kind of things to get their paint. BUTCH 2: Different kind of things? Kurt Boone: Things like not pay for it . . . In this segment BUTCH 2 talks about his experience with "racking," a term that graffiti artists use to describe the extra-legal ways they would go about acquiring supplies. He also discusses how writers back in the day would have to obtain extra caps and the difference that the mainstreaming and legalization of graffiti in certain settings has had upon the tools that artists use. Caps (Spray paint);Colors;Racking (Graffiti) Graffiti;Spray paint;Tools in art 0 2752 Pieces that Stand Out Steven Payne: Do you, do you have a favorite production of yours, from, either from the early time or maybe your entire time writing? BUTCH 2: There was one. I think, you, you know the one I'm talking about, the one that they, that Don1 filmed . . . In this segment BUTCH 2 talks about his favorite piece as well as a mural that he helped paint at Prospect Hospital during the period that a few writers were transitioning to mural and canvas work. Don1 (Graffiti artist);Pieces (Graffiti);Prospect Hospital Graffiti;Mural painting and decoration 0 2879 The Fantastic Partners (TFP) BUTCH 2: TFP. Kurt Boone: Yes. BUTCH 2: TFP is my crew. It's not my crew but the crew that I'm a member of. Steven Payne: Yeah. BUTCH 2: Goes way back. I think we started TFP probably in about '72 or '73. Long time. In this segment BUTCH 2 talks about his graffiti crew The Fantastic Partners (TFP). He remembers some of the members of the crew and talks about what's expected of members and how the crew has changed over time. Bot 707 (Graffiti artist);Case 2 (Graffiti artist);Hash 161 (Graffiti artist);Solid 1 (Graffiti artist);The Fantastic Partners (Graffiti artists crew);Voe 56 (Graffiti artist) Graffiti artists 0 3084 Reflections on Aerosol Art BUTCH 2: It's just, it's rewarding. I know I was there when it all began, you know. Steven Payne: Yeah. BUTCH 2: It's a global thing. Global, my man. I bet if you walk in Montefiore you'll probably see some type of art soon as you get in there. In this segment BUTCH 2 offers some general reflections on graffiti, particularly the spread of the art form around the globe, his frustration artists who are hesitant about the word "graffiti", and the often arbitrary distinction between "vandalism" and "creativity". Aerosol arts;Graffiti;Koch, Ed (Edward I.);Montefiore Hospital and Medical Center;Vandalism Advertising;Art & arts;Global culture;Graffiti;Hip-hop;Subways;Vandalism 0 3358 Current Work BUTCH 2: I got a few canvases I, I'm playing with. You know, you got some people who are waiting for some new work. I'm setting, I'm still putting my studio together. But yeah, canvases. I wanna go bigger. I'm doing some, I got, got, got like 9x12"s, some 8x10"s, but I wanna go bigger . . . In this segment BUTCH 2 talks about some his current work painting canvases and his efforts to convert his apartment into an artist studio and gallery. Canvas Graffiti 0 3424 CASE 2 (TFP) and Other Writers BUTCH 2: That's my partner, Case, because before him I was painting alone. Like I said, 225th Street. Steven Payne: Yeah. BUTCH 2: Until, I'd go up there and do my whole car . . . In this segment BUTCH 2 talks about other graffiti artists, including his longtime artistic partner CASE 2. He discusses where he and other writers would watch their subway artwork, the importance of crews in getting into subway stations, and the fact that so many of the early artists are still living in The Bronx and never received significant money for their art. He also speaks about appearing in Style Wars (1983), his experience with Fashion Moda (the first storefront gallery featuring graffiti artists in The Bronx), the end of the era of whole car painting, competition with other artists, and subway lines besides the 2/5 and 6. 149th Street–Grand Concourse station;6 Lexington Avenue Local;<6> Pelham Bay Park Express;Allerton Avenue (The Bronx, N.Y.);Blade (Graffiti artist);Case 2 (Graffiti artist);Claremont Parkway (New York, N.Y.);Crash (Graffiti artist);DJ Kool Herc;Dr. Dre, 1965-;Esplanade (Bronx, N.Y.);Futura (Graffiti artist);Hunts Point Avenue station;In (Graffiti artist);Inside writers (Graffiti);Kodak instant camera;Layups (Graffiti);Magik Markers;Pieces (Graffiti);Quinones, Lee George;Soundview (The Bronx, N.Y.);Style Wars (1983);The Crazy Five (Graffiti artist group);The Fantastic Partners (Graffiti artist group);Third Avenue (The Bronx, N.Y.);Throw ups (Graffiti);West Farms Square–East Tremont Avenue station;Whole cars (Graffiti);Writers' Bench (Graffiti) Canvas;Fashion Moda (Group);Graffiti artists;Hip-hop;Lettering in art;Street art;Subway stations 0 4373 Work as a Bike Messenger and Time in Texas BUTCH 2: I don't know. I guess it was quick and easy. Steven Payne: Yeah. BUTCH 2: And it was big, it was a big business, too. Steven Payne: Sure. In this segment BUTCH 2 speaks about his work in New York City as a bike messenger, as well as a period of his life that he spent in Texas working primarily at a Yard House Restaurant. He also discusses the graffiti scenes in San Antonio, Dallas, and Houston. Co-op City (The Bronx, N.Y.);Dallas (Tex.);Houston (Tex.);Meeting of Styles (Graffiti convention);Olive Garden Restaurants;San Antonio (Tex.);The Paint Yard (Graffiti store);Yard House Restaurants Bicycles and bicycling;Graffiti;Messengers;Mexicans in art;Restaurants--Employees 0 4930 Various Topics and The Bronx in the 1980s BUTCH 2: Today's artists is buying paint. I find that hard to do. Steven Payne: Yeah, yeah. BUTCH 2: I find that hard to do. Steven Payne: Yeah, for sure. In this segment, BUTCH 2 revisits and expands on a variety of topics, including racking, the difference between getting supplies now versus back in the day, and the effect of drugs on the graffiti scene. He also speaks about what he was doing in the mid-1980s, his time at Bronx Community College, his experience with hip hop during these years, and fires in The Bronx (both current and past). Angel dust;Bronx Community College;Bronx River Houses;Case 2 (Graffiti artist);Crack cocaine;Genevese Drug Stores;Grandmaster Flash;Joints;Martin Paints;Racking (Graffiti);Soulsonic Force (Musical group);The Fantastic Partners (Graffiti artist group);Wild Style (1983) Arson--United States;Bronx (New York, N.Y.);Drugs;Fires;Graffiti;Hip-hop;Paint shops--Equipment and supplies 0 5604 Graffiti Exhibits BUTCH 2: What's this here? It should be decent . . . In this segment BUTCH 2 talks about a 2020 graffiti exhibit at the Bronx Museum of the Arts as well as his being featured at the Museum of Graffiti in Miami, Florida. Bronx Museum of the Arts;Futura (Graffiti artist);Museum of Graffiti (Miami, Fl.) Artists and museums;Graffiti artists 0 5833 Final Reflections BUTCH 2: Home, basically. Steven Payne: Yeah. BUTCH 2: The Bronx is Home. I was born in Jacobi Hospital on March 31, 1960. In this final segment BUTCH 2 reflects on The Bronx and the meaning of art. He also offers advice to younger artists. ALDI (Firm);Claremont Parkway (New York, N.Y.);Co-op City (The Bronx, N.Y.);Gun Hill Road (The Bronx, N.Y.);Hunts Point (The Bronx, N.Y.);Jacobi Hospital;Lambert Houses (The Bronx, N.Y.);Longfellow Avenue (The Bronx, N.Y.);Pelham Gardens (The Bronx, N.Y.);Washingon Avenue (The Bronx, N.Y.) Art & arts;Bronx (New York, N.Y.) 0 Oral history recorded for the Bronx Aerosol Arts Documentary Project on January 18, 2022 with BUTCH 2, a pioneer in the graffiti arts movement from The Bronx, a master of wild style lettering design, a member of The Fantastic Partners (TFP), and one of the first artists to paint whole trains as early as 1972. In this oral history, BUTCH 2 describes his time growing up in The Bronx of the 1960s and 1970s, what drew him to graffiti, how he developed some of his artistic techniques, and much more. Steven Payne Welcome to the first oral history of the Bronx Aerosol Arts Documentary Project. My name is Steven Payne, librarian and archivist at the Bronx County Historical Society. Kurt and Pastor, why don't you introduce yourselves briefly before we introduce the main event, our guest here? Kurt Boone Okay, I'm Kurt Boone, native New Yorker, and I've been writing about urban culture for 40 years. Pastor Crespo I'm Pastor Crespo and I'm a volunteer here at the Bronx County Historical Society. Steven Payne All right, thank you. And we're really excited to be here today with the art legend, BUTCH 2, who came of age in The Bronx during the 1970s and first achieved fame as a writer for his mastery of wildstyle lettering design and as a member of The Fantastic Partners (TFP). And there's many other things I could say about BUTCH 2's stylistic and technical innovations, but we'll ask him to talk about that in a little bit. For now, we'll start this oral history with a bit of background. So why don't you tell us a little bit about your family's history and background and how they ended up in The Bronx. BUTCH 2 Me born and raised in the Bronx. 1960. My father's from Georgia. Augusta, Georgia? Yeah. Augusta, Georgia. My mother's from the Bronx. Their union is pretty much a mystery to me. But they did meet and my mother had four kids. I got I'm like the guy right in the middle. Steven Payne Okay, right in the middle. BUTCH 2 I got older brother younger brother. I got older sister. Steven Payne Okay. BUTCH 2 Yeah, we grew up around Claremont Parkway with the Third Avenue Ele. Steven Payne And I was still standing. Yes. Yeah. BUTCH 2 Right. And because matter of fact, I think our window was right level with the Ele because you can hear it going by Steven Payne okay. BUTCH 2 But I don't think the trains really interested me then. You know, people were tagging and stuff like that. But I think it was more that point in time, people I think got more fun out of hitchhiking on the bus hitchhiking on the train. It wasn't really grabbed. Steven Payne Yeah, BUTCH 2 you know. I think graffiti might have caught me. When after we left on Third Avenue. We moved to Washington Avenue before Claremont Projects came up. Steven Payne Okay. Okay. BUTCH 2 And from there we went, we moved to Hunts Point. And that's that's where it all basically started the 6 line. I live by Whitlock, between Whitlock and Hunts Point. So we on the corner and we playing and we playing Johnny whatever. The pumpkin, you would see the trains come off the tunnel. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 And I think one day I saw a Take Five. Steven Payne Okay. BUTCH 2 And I think that changed my whole everything, you know, with the with the fire hydrant with the flames. Yeah, that that's what graffiti first grabbed me. Steven Payne How old were you? BUTCH 2 I think I might have been 11 or 12 Steven Payne 11 or 12. BUTCH 2 Yeah. Steven Payne And had art interest you much before that? Time. Yeah. BUTCH 2 In junior high school. You know, it's funny. There's a photograph. Ah, we're in art class and everybody sitting around, we might have had an art. What do you call it like a project. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 And everybody was, you know, drawing and doing whatever they got to do. They want us to draw a bowl of fruit. They want to draw some pepper shaker. My project was on the blackboard. Steven Payne Ah, okay. BUTCH 2 And I had to tape paper all the way down. But that's how I started working big for the beginning. Steven Payne Wow. Yeah. BUTCH 2 And there's a picture of that in my high school yearbook. Somebody had that photo. Oh, but yeah, that's when it kind of started. I just love art. Steven Payne Yeah. Which High School was. BUTCH 2 I went to junior high school 123 its on Bruckner Boulevard and Larson. Steven Payne Okay, okay. BUTCH 2 Yeah, I was about 11 years old. Writing on the buses was big thing. Steven Payne Okay, BUTCH 2 you know, because on the way home everybody pull out, they little markers were like this big. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 And, um, I was telling you before everybody had a graffiti name, everybody. Steven Payne Yes. BUTCH 2 You know, just like when a Rap first started. Everybody had a rap name. You could have been cool, cool. Stevie D. You know, Steve ski in MC Stevie Steve that? That was the format. Steven Payne Yeah, BUTCH 2 you know, I was you know either the street you live on? Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 I think I was Butch 179 or something. And then I was like, nah. I'm gonna do Butch One. And there was this one guy my junior high school named Keith Keith for Bronx River and God bless he's dead. He passed away a long time ago. But he came up and said, I'm Butch One! You know what I said? I'm Butch Two Steven Payne easy. BUTCH 2 And went from there. Kurt Boone Why was Is Butch your nickname? BUTCH 2 That's my nickname. My brothers and sisters gave me that there used to be a, just to bring that up real quick. There was a cartoon Bozo. Who was his sidekick, Butch? Kurt Boone Butch, Oh, okay. BUTCH 2 And they used to call me that and I didn't like it at first but it kind of stuck. It kind of stuck. But yeah, that's where that came from. And it went from there some guys after the Graff, that's when hip hop started with you know MCing DJing. People kind of migrated to that. Steven Payne I see BUTCH 2 a lot of guys you know, threw the magic marker away, picked up a microphone. You know, but I'm just kind of stuck with Graff maybe because I never could really get the concept of of rapping, you know, you know, and then that freestyle I was never that the best at it. So I stuck with the Graff. Steven Payne Stuck with the Graff yeah yeah, Kurt Boone You were telling me the other day about we talked a little bit about the movie Fort Apache you wasn't really into it, but you you grew up in that in that neighborhood BUTCH 2 Yeah down the street. Kurt Boone That was 41st precinct. So explain what it was liking you know, you know, obviously a lot of gangs you you didn't get into any gangs. BUTCH 2 I think I might have. I might have been a Young Javelin or something, Steven Payne young javelin, okay. The Royal javelins was the BUTCH 2 The main guys they was. Yeah, it was in the Nomads, the Skulls, the Immortals, the Javelins, you know, it was a lot of gangs best bet don't even go up towards Simpson Street. Steven Payne Yeah, BUTCH 2 don't go to Simpson Street. Because shits happens up there. But then it wasn't really guns back then. It was more zip guns. You make your own little zip guns. And yeah, if you had that you was a bad man. Steven Payne Yeah, yeah. BUTCH 2 Nowadays, I just don't understand it. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 People running around. Yeah, yeah, they catching people. 17 and 18 years old to adults. And Steven Payne I know, BUTCH 2 in different stuff. I'm like, wow, Yeah. But that's how the Graff started with me. Because there was a story I heard about a rapper. I won't even mention his name, but it's a rapper. And they matter of fact the group went to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. But he gave his story and said he wasn't good at writing. Steven Payne Ah, BUTCH 2 he couldn't really do the wildstyle and all that. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 Which is why he left and went again started rapping. Steven Payne Ah, I see. I see so it went back and forth huh. BUTCH 2 see with me. Yeah, so that said, everybody was looking for their niche. Steven Payne Yeah, BUTCH 2 you know, and I'm creative so I stayed with the Graff. Yeah, absolutely. Kurt Boone Now you you were in the competition and you. You submitted your art to Music & Art high school. And you got to admitted right. BUTCH 2 Oh, yeah. I told myself. I'm not going to a local high school. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 We had you have Monroe, Stevenson, Roosevelt. That's like being on the block. You ever go come outside and sit on the stoop? That's what it's like. Everybody, you know, everybody. So I told you, I made a promise to myself that I would I would not I would never go to a local high school. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 But I wanted to go to Clinton for the football team. Because back then Clinton had the main football guys. Steven Payne Yeah, BUTCH 2 Clinton Truman, Evander those were, the football schools. Um, but I put together they told me I took the test for Music and Art. And they said, Well, you submit your portfolio and I I didn't know what a portfolio was portfolio. But I had a small envelope, a manila envelope. And I put a few sketches in there. Steven Payne Okay. BUTCH 2 And I got accepted. Steven Payne Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So before before we get more into into your high school experience, Cause you mentioned football already. You were telling me earlier how you used to play football out in the street and football was something that you were really, really into for a period of time. BUTCH 2 Yes, yes, that's true. Oh, I was in love with football. I think my team back then ..... It was at about '72. Because Sunoco, the gas station. They used to give out stamps of different players. And then you put that in your in a book. It's like a big everyday I would would come across a Bruckner to go down to my boy's house on Evergreen to get stamps to go home and put them in my book. And I had that book, till. Not long ago, but yeah. Never heard of Pop Warner. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 You know, I had bought my own helmet, my own shoulder pads. I was a little guy. I think I might have weighed 120 or something. So, you know, I was intent on bulking up and, and stuff like that. Um, I maybe I didn't ask enough questions, but I never made it into any Football League. Steven Payne Yeah, yeah. BUTCH 2 We used to play football. Like I said, right outside. Steven Payne Yeah, BUTCH 2 I put on my helmet. Shoulder Pads. You know, I think my favorite team was the Vikings back then. Because you had all the Purple People-Eaters. I used to like them. Steven Payne Yeah. Did you ever get injured while while playing football out on the streets? BUTCH 2 Oh, no. But I think I had some animosity from my brothers. And we used to play they would play. And I realized later on that I should have been more of a defensive guy. Steven Payne Okay, BUTCH 2 because you can hit people legally. Legally, especially when you learn where to hit him at. But, uh, I was the one always wanting the ball, which it still can be defensive. Because if I'm the defense and you got the ball, I'm coming after you. But oh, yeah, my brothers and them They used to try to, you know, late hits and stuff like that. Kurt Boone You had equipment on out on the street or you went to the park? BUTCH 2 Right outside. Kurt Boone That's interesting. You played tackle right on the street? BUTCH 2 We played tackle right in the street right in the street. Yeah. Steven Payne What what are the things would y'all do for fun in the neighborhood? BUTCH 2 Oh, yeah. I mean, back then, I had the helmet and the shoulder pads. I had the catcher's mitt with the catcher's glove. We had, you know, the stickball bats, and basketball a lot of sports a lot of sports, you know, um, but that's what we did. I mean, we did the normal Johnny on the pony stuff. And Ring a Leave E Oh, you know, we did all that. Steven Payne All of that. Yeah. BUTCH 2 Pretty decent upbringing. Yeah. Steven Payne And as far as, as far as growing up goes, what kinds of music do you remember listening to either in your house or on the street? BUTCH 2 Oh, um, before Hip Hop. This is before Hip Hop. Yeah, because I remember in 1979 We were already living on 179th Street. And we first heard Rapper's Delight and all that. But before that, we used to do the Stylistics you know, all those guys. We used to chat we used to it was a couple of we used to have kissing contests. You got to get the girl as your partner you got I mean you kissing until slob was running... But that was the reason that was almost like Spin-the-Bottle. Kurt Boone Like Spin-the-Bottle, yeah. Steven Payne the parties did you do.... down in the basement. The hookie parties BUTCH 2 Nah, school was where it was at. I might go to school and not go to class. Steven Payne Yeah, BUTCH 2 So we never didn't go to school. Steven Payne Okay, BUTCH 2 School is, where everythings at. All the people. We wasn't even into the weed or the drink or nothing like that until I got to high school and there was one guy. DAVID MOSS. He used to write Kill One Kill One and ah. He was like a friend of mine but he used to always come up I got that Acapulco Gold yeah and then hand it to me. I take a couple of puffs again. I'm just sitting here like this for like the next two hours. You know, funny thing though. Yeah. Funny thing is oh, he was a writer too. He did some lay-ups and and everything. But it was just a thing that happened to him. He had a ...that's the job. He had Let me turn this off he had stuck his head out the window of a moving train and got hit by the traffic light. Turn around Boom!. So he has a nasty scar. Yeah, yeah. Oh. But that's what happened at Music and Art. But then later on I really realized I try to call Music & Art like the cousins to Art & Design. Steven Payne Okay. BUTCH 2 But it's really not we took we had art classes and we had our projects to do but Music and Art was really for Performing Arts. Steven Payne Okay. I see BUTCH 2 Acting. Steven Payne Yeah. So not really what not really what you were into looking to get into? BUTCH 2 No not true, because a few actors came from that school. Steven Payne Okay, okay. BUTCH 2 A few actors um. Marlon Wayans Jimmy Castor I don't know if your Jimmy Castor he went to Music & Art. I think did Wesley Snipes or somebody got to Music & Art, but they spinned-out a few guys Kurt Boone Was it like Fame the TV show. BUTCH 2 That's what it was based on the Performing arts. Kurt Boone The performing arts from the musical high school Fame TV show was based on it. BUTCH 2 Yeah, but not like I was not really dedicated but then a lot of new shit started coming up. Steven Payne Ok, yeah. BUTCH 2 Crews, Graff. I don't know why these guys used to come to my school all the time. Shouldn't y'all be in school? Yo, Butch. I Come outside and there was like three or four guys waiting on me well you know I got to go to class. You know? That kind of derailed me. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 Now, they coming up and you got there was one girl Karen. She used to ah we used to hang out at her house because she was like over on Broadway, Amsterdam. But she kept ah weed. Steven Payne Okay, yeah. BUTCH 2 But I was not really into weed like that. Never was Steven Payne yeah, no. BUTCH 2 I mean, I had a crew called Cheeba Action because we after a while we did start that everyday shit. Yeah, but that's Kurt Boone Music & Art where was that at? That was ah BUTCH 2 The original Music & Art is now it's called A. Philip Randolph. Kurt Boone Okay. BUTCH 2 It's on 135th and St. Nicholas Terrace. Steven Payne Okay. BUTCH 2 You come down. 136 and you get to the park. Okay. It's at the top. You can see it's like a castle. Kurt Boone Yeah. BUTCH 2 It's A. Philip Randolph now. But Music & Art, I moved down to Lincoln Center. Steven Payne Ah, okay. Okay. BUTCH 2 It's Lincoln Lincoln Center. Steven Payne Yeah. And what was what was your overall experience like in high school? BUTCH 2 It was, uh I don't know. I think like I said, different things started coming into play a lot of different stuff. So I would go to school and not go to class. Steven Payne Yeah, BUTCH 2 Stuff like that. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 Ah, my academic history. I was in 1-1, 2-1, 3-1, 4-1, 5-1, 6-1, 7-SPE. And then I when I went to eighth grade, I went to 8-3 I thought the world was ending 8-3. Oh, my God. And then oh, I got to Music & Art and everybody's smart. Everybody's getting top grades. So I'm not really the star of the show no more. You know? And I wasn't really like what I learned about college. It's like, you can't come home and just steal your books and gone outside. You have to sit down and do what you got to do. You got homework and shit. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 I wasn't doing that. Steven Payne Yeah. Yeah. It sounds like you were using in elementary and junior high. It just came naturally to you. BUTCH 2 Yeah, it did. Steven Payne Yeah, I didn't really have to study much or anything else. BUTCH 2 When you got with but when you get up to the higher grades its a little more complicated, because now you got to do algebra, geometry, trigonometry. And you got to you got to figure that out. It's not that simple. Steven Payne Yeah. And what were the teachers like for you in elementary and junior and high school? BUTCH 2 I loved all my teachers. they were, good. It was one Miss Glazer. And I went back. I had to go I couldn't find her. But she's the one that kind of stunned my application all you you're going for Music & Art. Like you're not gonna make it. And when I got to when I made it, I personally was going back to show her. Steven Payne Yeah, yeah. BUTCH 2 Miss Glazer. Steven Payne Okay. Yeah. Well, if she if she's still around. BUTCH 2 I think you know she's long gone. I think when I went to Music & Art it was '74. Steven Payne Yeah. Wow. BUTCH 2 And now my name is starting to become more known and people know me and this and that I got a girlfriend and I got a thousand reasons not to go to class. Again, when I finally do go, I'm not prepared. And stuff like that. So that thing's got tumultuous around the 10th grade. Kurt Boone You were already painting trains at that time too. BUTCH 2 Yeah, yeah, I had hit whole cars at that time, I was going with a girl that lived across the street from 123. Steven Payne Okay, okay. BUTCH 2 And I just go to her house. I still talk to her on Facebook. Um, can't get her to come over. But Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 But yeah, I did my first piece on that bridge, right there across from 1569 Bruckner Boulevard. It's her building and we 123 is right across the street. And there's a little bridge that takes you to the other side of Bruckner. Steven Payne Yeah, BUTCH 2 I did a piece on that bridge. And I had that picture. I lost it. Steven Payne Oh, that's too bad BUTCH 2 yeah. Steven Payne Wow. Wait. So So were you in junior high school when you did that first piece? BUTCH 2 UmHmm Steven Payne Okay. Wow. So, so when you saw when you had that experience in, you know, looking at the 6 line, you must have started writing pretty much very shortly after that. BUTCH 2 Yeah. Yeah. It was easy I mean. If you're like a daredevil, it's easy, because we would have to go up and go on tracks. And step up on the third rail. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 It's been some fatalities through the years a few people died. Steven Payne Sure, BUTCH 2 Messing with trains. But we would go and then now we're forming a little crew. Now you got guys to go with you. And it might be four or five, six of us. Right up on um Soundview? Steven Payne Yeah, BUTCH 2 The trains was right there. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 And when the temperature dropped, they will put him in a tunnel. And we would really go for it. Steven Payne and make it easy for you. Yeah. Otherwise, you'd have to balance and BUTCH 2 Yeah, but we knew how to we knew how to get through the track to the "Ele." pole and go down the pole. You know, we had escape techniques and stuff. Steven Payne Wow. BUTCH 2 Um, yeah, that's when they they tried to say that the 6 line the 6 train was like a toy line. Oh, ya'll hit the 6 because we but at this point we're the 6 boys Steven Payne Yeah, BUTCH 2 The 6 boys. And you got guys ah y'all the 6 boys. Come on, man. the 6. The 6 is toy line. Y'all got oh, you King of the 6. Come on, man. So what we did we banded together and we moved over to the 5 train. We go on we we are now coming to Broadway. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 And that's what we went hard. We went hard. We did a piece and Bob will tell you we're invading 5. we're invading the 5. And then we just went off. And that's when we I guess you, you big time now. Steven Payne Yeah, yeah. Graduating from the 6 to the 5 BUTCH 2 Yeah. Yeah, Steven Payne yeah. Wow. Yeah. BUTCH 2 2s and 5s. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 And the 5 train wasn't that far. So we, you know, we never had problems because within the Graff world you have conflicts with different people and territorial and this, we never had that. Never. I've never had problems with that. I've never got arrested for graffiti. Kurt Boone So Daniel's squad They never got you. BUTCH 2 Never. Steven Payne Yeah, BUTCH 2 They used to come down to 149th Street and just say hi, they will just they wanted to see who was who? Kurt Boone Ahh, see the faces. BUTCH 2 Pretty much. But see it's different now because of you. If you destroyed state property or something, they'll look for your name on Facebook. Kurt Boone Ah fuck that. BUTCH 2 They look for you. Yeah, Steven Payne For sure. BUTCH 2 Yeah, Steven Payne Sure. So let me see. I think maybe just one or two more questions, and then we'll get you know, fully into into the Graff world. But just a couple of questions about growing up. What are some things that you remember eating in your household? While growing up? BUTCH 2 I love my mom's she does cook. My mom's is a good cook. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 On Sundays. I think we By 2 o'clock in the afternoon, we are eating dinner. Steven Payne Okay BUTCH 2 with that. See got I accustomed to that. Steven Payne Yeah, BUTCH 2 See I can get up at 6, 7, 8 o'clock in the morning and start dinner. Steven Payne Yeah, BUTCH 2 You know, but then she would send you out for the Sunday paper. But that's when the Daily News was like $1. I think now it's maybe $3. Steven Payne Yeah, I think so. BUTCH 2 But uh, my mom's did your baking and she fried chicken and your meatloaf everything. Steven Payne Yeah, BUTCH 2 Spaghetti. All of that, the only thing I didn't like was creamed corn. Steven Payne Oh, okay. BUTCH 2 I think I think I get the hives. All of a sudden I was like, yo, and then I looked it was like a big welt, and I was like and I never ate it again. And I had to be like eight. Steven Payne Okay, yeah. BUTCH 2 8 or 9 never ate it again. I'm 61. Never! Steven Payne Did your dad ever cook? BUTCH 2 Nah, I think oh, they had split my father was living on Webster Avenue. Steven Payne Oh, okay. Okay, BUTCH 2 In a basement apartment. My grandmother his mom lived around the corner on Clay. Steven Payne Ah, okay. Okay. BUTCH 2 You know. But yeah, I guess they, he did his thing over there. I used to go see them. I'm that type. I always go visit my aunts and uncles. And this and that. That was my thing. You know, um, yeah, before I was cooking, cause I cook now. Steven Payne Okay. BUTCH 2 And I know my way around the kitchen because you know how mom was like "get me a onion." You don't got not that big. So now your mind you know what to do? Steven Payne Yeah, for sure. BUTCH 2 Yeah. My mom's cooks. I cook. I think my daughter's a good cook, too. Steven Payne Oh, okay. Okay. So yeah. When would y'all ever visit your your father's family back in Georgia? Did anyone stay in Georgia or did everyone? BUTCH 2 No, my daughter and them is in Georgia now but Elaine is my father's youngest sister my aunt. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 Which she gets a kick out of calling me nephew because we're about the same age. She's in Virginia. She invited me down. At least we're pretty much reconnecting right now. We we talk and everything. She invited me down. But no we never went back to Augusta, Georgia. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 My father's history. I'm not too knowledgeable about that. You know, my mom. She was like a bunch of brothers and sisters. You know, back in the days it would be grandma had 10 kids. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 Grandma had 10 kids. I don't even know if the birth birth control existed. Steven Payne Yeah, BUTCH 2 I don't know. But um, yeah, she was the oldest and everything so. And she was like the last surviving member of her family too. Steven Payne wow. BUTCH 2 Yeah. But um, we, my moms she always talked about like, family reunion. No, we never did that. Everybody been doing their own thing. You know? It's kind of hard to pull them together or people will sell you dreams. Okay. Yeah. And then no-shows. Yeah. Steven Payne Yeah. Well Kurt, why don't you go ahead and start asking some more questions aboutnGraff. Kurt Boone I wanted to kind of like, you went, you graduated from Music & Art? BUTCH 2 No, I didn't. Kurt Boone Okay, BUTCH 2 I got in trouble in the 10th grade and I wound up getting a prison sentence. Kurt Boone You wanna talk about that a little. I mean, not not to what you did, but you know, what was that experience like? You know. BUTCH 2 17 in a state prison. What was that experience Like? Hmm? Kurt Boone So you? You went upstate? Out of Rikers you was in Rikers but then you went upstate. BUTCH 2 Yeah. Kurt Boone Okay. Yes, so you was pretty young in there. BUTCH 2 Seventeen. Kurt Boone That's young. Steven Payne Yeah. Kurt Boone In an adult prison. That's pretty. BUTCH 2 Oh, I had gotten my GED. end up getting my GED and get the highest grade out of everybody. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 Um, when I came home in '79, around November, because when you was getting closer to your release, I tried to get into college up there. Steven Payne Oh, BUTCH 2 And they wouldn't let me for I think it was a violent crime, whatever they classified to say no. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 So what I did was say as soon as I get out, I'm going to college. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 And they said, because my GED was a 242 was my score. You have to have 300 or better to go to a university. So that 242 I ended up in Bronx Commjunity College. Steven Payne Sure. Yeah. BUTCH 2 I, I think, um, no, I didn't graduate from there. But um, I have for 66 credits to graduate. I think I had 62. Steven Payne Oh, yeah. Right. Kurt Boone You were close. BUTCH 2 Um, reason being, I had a job with two guys on Arthur Avenue. It was like it was a TAP program, tuition assistance program, something like that. And they convinced me to stay. I needed one more class, which was a pre precalculus. Steven Payne Oh, BUTCH 2 And I was trying to take it at night and there was not enough people registering. So I never got that class. Steven Payne Yeah. Yeah. BUTCH 2 They were giving up a couple people. I knew had got their honorary degree, you know, Steven Payne yeah. BUTCH 2 But you have to go back to the math department or to whatever department and state your case and whatever and it's up to their discretion, but I think I was trying to get back in and it just never worked. Kurt Boone Okay. So what was your your first introduction to style writing. So obviously, you're in the game, they're, you know, they not just putting up they name in your way. You got to develop a form to get some respect. So when did you start kind of like working on your craft? And did you see any other artist that you wanted to innovate for afterwards? Saw them do you want to do your own kind of innovation and style-writing. BUTCH 2 That's just what Graff is all about. It's just creative. You know, anybody can just do a B U T, but it's how you do it? Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 You know, it's about innovation. That's what the game is about innovation creating. Like you got guys that have different, 10 different names. I got one name, but I'm gonna work hard each time to change it up. Like you asked me before that I have other names. I had a couple of names and stuff. It's certain letters that a kind of intrigued me like at the N that goes like that with the base that so I came up with Nino or something crazy. Steven Payne Yeah, just to highlight that letter. Kurt Boone Highlight the letter. BUTCH 2 Yeah, but I um. I just see nowadays everybody's just adding arrows and stuff. I mean, come man. There's got to be more than that. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 Well, yeah, I just always, always created always sometimes we would sit around a table all day. Steven Payne Wow. BUTCH 2 All day. Kurt Boone Oh so you were using your the black-books first before before you went to New York City. BUTCH 2 Nah, nah . Black Books are for keeps you maybe more like a sketchpad. Kurt Boone More like a sketchpad okay. Steven Payne Everyone would be spread out. BUTCH 2 Yeah. sitting around and you know you get your little critique, but then you got some guys who try to criticize you like, come on. You always gonna to get that. Steven Payne Yeah. Did y'all ever look at like, like different kinds of type faces or like things like that? Or did you pretty much just kept it within what you all were doing? Did you look at like, calligraphy or things like that ever to get inspiration? BUTCH 2 Yeah, we had characters, we did faces characters, different letters. Sometimes it's calligraphy and things like that is what gives you different ideas. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 Sometimes you look at that and figure I can take that and do this. Steven Payne Yeah, for sure. BUTCH 2 Yeah, Steven Payne for sure. BUTCH 2 Everything is ah inspiration. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 Everything. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 I could look over here and see that box and say I'm gionna do box letters. Steven Payne Yeah. Yeah, for sure. BUTCH 2 Oh, shit. I can make the 3-D flowing back like that. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 Everything is great. How do you usually use just see it like that? That's how you see. Steven Payne Yeah. Kurt Boone So how was it learning how to use the spray paint can cause there's an art in just creating art with the spray can versus the brush. Did you experiment with it first. or you just went out there and got it naturally? BUTCH 2 A little bit of both a little bit of both. But the game's changed. I mean, even as far as just faded colors, faded 3D, explosions, fire. All that's changed. There's just a lot more. But yeah, you experiment you like the saying goes, you learn something new every day. You got to try it though. It doesn't always work. Which comes, trial and error. Kurt Boone Right, right. Steven Payne Do you remember the first spray paint can you ever picked up? BUTCH 2 It's probably Red Devil. Right. Back then it was Krylon Red Devil and Rustoleum. Those were the three major brands that I think today. It's a spray paint's a big market. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 See, now they got Montana. They got a bunch of other brands, you got some guys. from Germany doing something that's paint for Loop there's another paint called Double A or something. But it's the quality and the pressure. Because high pressure means it'll spit fast. So if you don't know that, it's just gonna be all kinds of drips. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 So they have other paint that was low pressure, just kind of spit slow. Which is what you want? Pretty much. Steven Payne sure. BUTCH 2 You know, oh, if you get high pressure, that's probably if you're doing something like this. And you have the right cap. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 You can probably fill in fast. Yeah. But I learned about that pressure thing quick. Yeah, because I'm doing what I normally do, but I'm ruining it somehow. And you can't not like a canvas where you could just white it out. See you can't do that on the trains. Steven Payne Did you have guys that you were that you were running with who had already had a little more experience and were able to teach you or you all kind of just go into it. And experimenting. BUTCH 2 Oh, physically just going in. But I mean, we had a lot of guys. That can talk to you about almost like the facts of life the facts of Graff. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 Like Yeah, like big brothers sure uncle's like Stan 153. God bless he's dead Phase Two. I used to go to Stan's house like all the time. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 And just watch him paint. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 And it still things he did that I never figured out. Steven Payne Really? BUTCH 2 Yeah. Oh, but that's that's the canvas. That's when the game trans transferred like over the canvases and stuff. Steven Payne Okay. Okay. BUTCH 2 Because he was always intent on trying to do he was like an illustrator. He wanted to do a comic book. Steven Payne Yeah, yeah. BUTCH 2 Type of guy we used to go and sit down and watch him draw and help him with the dialogue and stuff like that. But as far as learning how to paint, you just learn on your own. Steven Payne learn on your own. BUTCH 2 Yeah, that's the only way you could do it. Steven Payne Yeah. Kurt Boone So you, your career. You you kind of spent a lot of time doing whole cars versus throw-ups, the throw-ups would be smaller and do a quick, the whole cars is a lot more work. So what tell us what goes into painting a whole ar. BUTCH 2 It's a production. A production is just so gotta have a theme. Sometimes you have to have a blueprint. Yeah. It's really obvious. And then you have to have the paint you know, sometimes teamwork you have certain guys that, like I was back then I was when we was on the 6s. And some of the early days on the 5 I'm like the like the, not to brag, but the brains of the whole operation. You know, I I can do the outlines. Everybody's. While he's coming behind me filling in. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 Then I come back to do 3D. You know, and then all the way down while he's doing you know, it was It was an operation. Steven Payne Wow. BUTCH 2 You know, and yeah, it was the objective was to do the whole car. Even if you just did three different names, connected him with a cloud and then just did all kinds of explosions and stuff. Just to cover the whole train. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 Yeah. Steven Payne How old were you when you did your first entire car? BUTCH 2 I think I did a silver and black, top to bottom when I was about 13 cars and I had that picture give you a quick story about my photo albums every time we would get in trouble but one of my partner's Case 2 would come to my house and get the books. Steven Payne Yeah BUTCH 2 Hey Mrs. Wilkins. This ah Butch ah they told me to. So and then I come home and get back and forth back and forth back and forth and some how they just disappeared Steven Payne That's too bad. BUTCH 2 Yeah I had pictures going back to seven to the whole call. I was about 12, 12 or 13 Steven Payne Wow. BUTCH 2 But I did it this slick way you at on each train station there's a thing of pipes that come off. And there was one set of pipes on 225th Street. Steven Payne Okay, okay BUTCH 2 On the 2 train. And I would just come there like 6 in the morning? Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 By myself. Steven Payne Wow. BUTCH 2 And just do a quick whole car and just cut out. Steven Payne So how long did it take to do a whole car? BUTCH 2 A few hours? Steven Payne Okay. BUTCH 2 But see thething about to 225th street you can see the train all the way up the track so now I know the train's coming. I can get up and go on back downstairs. Yeah. Wow. Kurt Boone And that was like those were like a lay-up like a lay-up versus the yard. So like the yard you you kind of you like did a lot of work on lay-ups versus going into trying to get BUTCH 2 We did both. Kurt Boone You did both okay. BUTCH 2 Lay-ups and yards? I said I had a favorite spot. Kurt Boone You have a favorite spot. BUTCH 2 Yes. Kurt Boone Where was that Brooklyn Bronx Queens? BUTCH 2 225th Street on 2 train. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 Or to 233rd somewhere up near the end. Okay, sure. Because you know, it's near the end so not that many people are coming to go uptown. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 And the thing about the downtown side you covering the windows and everything. They can't see you. Kurt Boone Oh, wow. That's smart. Yeah, because it gives you more time to paint. BUTCH 2 Yeah, but a little trickery involved. But sometimes the best way is just the right way. Because sometimes you I might have had a good academic background thinking, but sometimes now you try and out slick the police and, and out slick the engineers and some of the yard crew and it doesn't always work. Steven Payne Yeah. Kurt Boone So you have to run. When they see you. BUTCH 2 Yeah, Steven Payne yeah, Kurt Boone yeah. So you tell us about racking because there's a lot of stories about how artists got they paint, people would do young artists would do different kinds of things to get their paint. they get their paint. BUTCH 2 Different kinds of things. Kurt Boone Things like not pay for it. BUTCH 2 And actually, honestly, in the beginning, I was pretty much a scaredy cat. But like I said, I was the brains. So I didn't have to steal nothing. Steven Payne Sure, sure. You just organized it. BUTCH 2 Once they came with the paint, we figure out what we gonna to do. Steven Payne Yeah. Kurt Boone Okay. BUTCH 2 But oh, I mean, eventually. Because you five of us would go in a store, and they will come out, everybody come out with paint and I might have one can. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 But I think along the way, I developed a little more courage. Steven Payne Sure. Yeah. BUTCH 2 And now, you know, because it got to a point where it didn't matter if they even saw you or not because once I pick, pick this up. It's mine. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 I'm leaving with this. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 And um, yeah, after after a while. Like they got pretty good. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 And that's when I used to be by myself, because I could just go and get what I need. Boom. Steven Payne Yeah. How many cans do you think it would take to do a whole car? BUTCH 2 I would say 8, 10. Steven Payne Okay. BUTCH 2 Something like that. Steven Payne Not a huge number then BUTCH 2 Nah, not really. But it depends on because I got one guy who paints today. Sometime in a production, one of the main attractions is the diversity of the more colors you have. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 So he this OBI, so he may have 30 cans with him? Steven Payne Oh, BUTCH 2 30. Steven Payne Were all different colors. BUTCH 2 Yeah. But to see now you can take that beige and add a little bit of brown for the shade. You know, a little bit more darker. Stuff like that. But see, you bring 30 cans and you probably taking about 30 back which you. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 And I was just on some I'm taking when I need that's it. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 You know, maybe I'll find a Can or I can borrow some paint But Steven Payne yeah, BUTCH 2 that was me. But it depends on what you doing. You know, like this today, guys got cars. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 And they can have a trunkload of paint. Steven Payne Yeah. But lugging all that on the subway or walking. BUTCH 2 It's different. Right it's Different. Steven Payne Yeah. And you're telling me earlier before we started this about the caps, so I thought that was really interesting. Then, as opposed to now, BUTCH 2 Yeah there was only two caps, two kinds of caps There was Jif Foam and Niagara. Jif foam was I think some type of Toilet Bowl Cleaner or something. And Niagara was spray starch. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 And like I said, we would have to go into the store and take actually, take the cap off, take the cap off, take the cap off. And I said now you can go online and order 100 caps, you can go to any one of these little graffiti stores. And they give you a bag with 100 caps. Steven Payne Wow. BUTCH 2 That's what I said. Wow. Wow. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 But I think that's why guys kind of give us a praise. Because it was a whole different lifestyle. You know, you had to get in and get out. Like I said, Now you guys, they're painting legal walls. You got permission. So you can sit out there all day. go to lunch, come back, sign a couple of autographs. Talk to a few girls. you couldn't do that. Steven Payne You were always looking over your left shoulder. BUTCH 2 Yeah, you get in and get out. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 It's different. Steven Payne And did you ever use anything other than spray paint as far as paint goes? BUTCH 2 No, I think guys have but I haven't. Steven Payne Yeah, BUTCH 2 I've seen guys actually pull out a roller. Steven Payne That makes quick work of things. BUTCH 2 I've seen it but like I said today, the mission is to just get the job done. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 You know, back then last year was taboo. Oh no. Yo, you use stencils. Oh my god. No. Yeah. Now I've seen people pull out paint brushes and stuff. Steven Payne Yeah, BUTCH 2 You know, for lines and different things and you know, using borders to get that tight line. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 Anything goes. Steven Payne yeah, yeah. BUTCH 2 Then used to be they usually paint late at night. Steven Payne Yeah, BUTCH 2 So you don't see you just come the next day and be like, Oh, shoot. Oh, yo this is nice. They got paint brushes. Steven Payne Little did you know. BUTCH 2 Right, exactly. Steven Payne Yeah. So you really had to know all the ins and outs of what spray paint can I mean, I'm sure you got to know them very quickly. BUTCH 2 Yeah. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 Sometimes cans get clogged. Steven Payne Yeah, BUTCH 2 Sometimes we would we would paint in subzero weather they get they get clogged and shit. That's a little frustrating. Steven Payne Oh, yeah, for sure. BUTCH 2 Yeah, you come and. Right. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 You know, and swearing you be like, Oh, man. Now you got to change plans real quick. Steven Payne Yeah. Yeah. BUTCH 2 Different stuff. Steven Payne Do you have a favorite production of yours from either from the early time or maybe your entire time? Writing? BUTCH 2 There was one I think, you know, the one I'm talking about when that they of Don One filmed. Kurt Boone It's the one were you standing on the ditch, the track and you were painting? Yeah yeah. BUTCH 2 Yeah, I like that one. I like that one I didn't even know he filmed it like that. Kurt Boone Okay. Steven Payne Oh, wow. BUTCH 2 But that you know, I think, um, because I had a fade I had a red orange and yellow cloud, my shit was cascade with purple 3D. And, and I did that real quick. Considering, you know, and, my boy, he was behind me taking pictures. Steven Payne Wow. BUTCH 2 He wrote a book and then he, he died. God bless he's dead Don One Queens writer. Yeah, yeah. He came out and they told me he was like, Yo, I want to paint with Butch. I want to paint with Butch. And we never did a piece together. But we hung out. Steven Payne Okay. BUTCH 2 I think we did that mural at Prospect hospital. That was the beginning of like, commission work. Steven Payne Oh, okay. Okay. BUTCH 2 1976 It was Prospect hospital because Prospect Hospital is not even there anymore. Steven Payne Wow. And ya'll had a mural there. BUTCH 2 They gave us a canvas. It was only supposed to be about four of us, but I think it wanted to be in about eight or 10 of us. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 Same money. More bread to spread. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 You know. And, but we had fun that day. We had a little audience and everything. Steven Payne Yeah. Kurt Boone So that's the picture in your book the book. Oh the Daily News wrote an article about that. So that the picture in Yoga the book. The Daily News wrote an article about that yeah. BUTCH 2 Yeah the news was there. And they had a few of they have they usually we needed to have events like that they usually arrange for TV magazines and all that There'd be cameras instead. Steven Payne Yeah. Kurt Boone So tell us a little bit about The Fantastic, The Fantastic Partners. BUTCH 2 TFP? TFP is a my crew. It's not my crew, but a crew that I'm a member of Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 Goes way back. I think we started TFP, probably in about '72 or '73. Longtime of OG Solid, But, me, Hash. Who am I forgetting Hash? VO 56 Those was like the core members. still around. Everybody's still around. Except Solid. He God bless he's dead. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 He died in a train accident. And it's tight as me him was I don't know where I was that day. Steven Payne Okay. Yeah. BUTCH 2 Somebody has the article. I think it was 1974. Steven Payne Wow. BUTCH 2 Yeah but The Fantastic Partners. It has it's grown. It's a Case 2. Yeah. It's grown. It's you got guys in Centos' in Hawaii. Yeah, OB is from Australia. We got guys all around. You know, the name is strong. My thing about TFP it's only it's just one thing. It's one entity. You can't write OTB, BTR GG. Then 't write TFP. No. If you notice most of the members it's all you write. Like if you was writing Steve TFP. That's it. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 A that's that's like the main thing. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 A lot of guys that a different walks of life and stuff. Everybody's holding they own. Everybody's healthy and stuff. We get together like that. Kurt Boone In your do ya'll paint sometimes together? or it's more like you're on any like any organized meeting thinking like that was just it's based on craft. So you're good enough as an artist we'll guide you to put TFP on your name. BUTCH 2 It's not only art. sometimes you have to be a well rounded pretty decent guy. Steven Payne Okay. BUTCH 2 You know you know, because it's later on we are trying to groom a new generation that might be more based on a skill set, you know, but I'm pretty well rounded people. That's all. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 We didn't have nobody running around robbing people. Nothing like that. Kurt Boone Creative art, art. Nice. That's great. So, you know, what's, what's it like today seeing the growth of Aerosol Art and seeing how it's being commissioned by big companies and artists doing large scale works on 20 storey buildings What's that like for you to see the art form grow into this kind of global phenomenon? BUTCH 2 This is a rewarding. I know I was there when it all began, you know? It's a global thing. Global my man. I bet if you walk in Montifiore, you probably see some type of art. Soon as you get in there. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 Everywhere. You go into a rich man's house. He's gonna have a bust or some type of thing art but see, we didn't create. We just added an art form. Steven Payne Yeah, Kurt Boone okay. BUTCH 2 Art, music and art is life it's everywhere. Steven Payne For sure. BUTCH 2 And it's always gonna be there music and art. You know like music you see rap came along. and whatnot. Then it kind of fused with R&B then it fused with rock & roll. You got some country rap? Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 You got to Dominican rap. So it but it's all music. It's just it's a new fusion. Everybody is looking for a little spice. You know, sometime you you even eating chicken all your life. Today, you might want to try something different. Let me throw some curry powder in there. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 So it's all music and art. It's just an added form. That's all. Graff. Kurt Boone Graff. BUTCH 2 You said some people don't like that word. I don't. You know what I'm talking about? Steven Payne Oh, yeah. Kurt Boone That's right. BUTCH 2 But I'm scared. But I'm saying some people don't like the word graffiti. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 But if I say graffiti, you know what I'm talking about. So I'm trying to as a as a communication. You have a sender and a receiver. You trying to get your message across? Ah, I don't like that. Come on man. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 It's really silly. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 Aerosol, what difference does it make? I mean, OK grafitti. Represents vandalism to a degree. But you get it where you fit in? If the shoe fits wear it. Do you vandalize? Do you create? Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 You know, what I'm saying don't don't take it as an insult. Let it fly. Kurt Boone Let it fly. I mean, from your perspective, when you when you were doing whole cars, you're thinking that you're, I don't know what you're thinking. But when people talk about it, they talk about as a masterpiece. BUTCH 2 Right, that's how it started. Kurt Boone Right? You're not talking about the vandalism? Because you're going in the yard? That's it? I mean, obviously going into the yard. So the Mayor Koch would call it vandalism, right? The police would call it vandalism but the artist himself didn't call it that. BUTCH 2 It depends on how you do it. Because you're going to cut a hole in states' property. If you're going to leave a bunch of cans laying around, writing in your name on the traffic light and shit. See if you noticed the guys who are really artists. Kurt Boone Yeah. BUTCH 2 They clean up behind them. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 They came behind themselves so that's part of that's part of it today. Steven Payne Sure. BUTCH 2 You take all your shit with you. So you don't give the owner a reason not to want you back. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 You fuck up then now you give him a reason. So you just cleaned up on yourself? Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 You know, that's how that goes. And you notice that even when they have old timers doing all they just out there and drinking all day. Look to your side. You know what you gonna see a garbage bag. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 They don't just go start busting bottles. Fighting. No, it's they did the motive is to clean up behind yourself. So it's not vandalism. But like I said, You go in the yard you done cut a hole in the fence. You done left a bunch of paint laying there. You done tag on the traffic signals and you done fucked up. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 You don't do that. Kurt Boone Right. Right. But still they would give it even though you would do a masterpiece on the whole car. MTA would still wash it off. Right? They don't, agree with how how it was done. You know how it's done? BUTCH 2 You're supposedly defacing property. Steven Payne Yeah, Kurt Boone yeah. BUTCH 2 But if you look at trains now look at all the advertisements. Steven Payne Oh, I know. Absolutely. BUTCH 2 That's advertisement. Steven Payne Yeah. Absolutely. Kurt Boone Yeah. Okay. All right. So tell us tell us a little bit about what what, what you're working on these days. BUTCH 2 I got two canvases I'm playing with you know, you got some people waiting for some new work. I'm setting I'm still putting my studio together. But yeah. canvases, I want to go bigger. I'm doing one guy got like, 9 x 12s or whatever two 8 x 10s. But I want to go bigger. Because matter of fact, I have a space. Matter of fact, what I'm doing is decorating my own apartment. I'm trying turning my apartment into like an art gallery. Steven Payne Yeah, yeah. BUTCH 2 That's what I'm really doing all these spaces. But see, the thing is, you don't paint the walls. You just get a big canvas where you can just hang it. Steven Payne Oh, sure. Yeah. BUTCH 2 So that's what I'm doing some interior decorating was this was Steven Payne okay. Kurt Boone You also painted with Case 2, you guys were known as a fearsome art team. You want to talk a little bit about Case 2 as well. BUTCH 2 That's my partner Case. Before him I was painting alone. Like I said to 225th Street on 2. Steven Payne Yeah, BUTCH 2 I'm going up there to do my whole car. But then, how'd I meet Case. We were still on the 6s. We're still hitting the 6 line. And we were at Soundview at night. Doing our little shit. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 And I think he was an inside writer. He was going through the train with a magic marker Steven Payne Sure. BUTCH 2 And he saw us out there painting so he stuck his head out. You know, like I told you to do all the main statement back then was What do you right? Steven Payne Yeah. Kurt Boone Yeah. BUTCH 2 And he said Case. I said Oh, I saw that before. And I asked him you know how to paint. He said, Yeah, I said come on down. And I gave him a can and had him fill-in the first can I think he ever had and then that started a whole nother thing. He i He was with me every day. Steven Payne Wow. BUTCH 2 Yeah. became my partner. So now it ain't just Butch you see it's Butch and Case, Butch and Case Butch and Case? He was always there. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 And he was my boy, you know? Kurt Boone And yeah, he would paint with one arm right. BUTCH 2 Two. Kurt Boone Oh, he had two. BUTCH 2 I'm just kidding. Dude only had one arm. I'm just messing with you. Steven Payne Were there spots you all like, like to hang out at to see your work? BUTCH 2 Oh, yeah. Everybody knows the Concourse. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 149th Street & Grand Concourse. Oh, yeah. Most guys came through there. Some guys didn't. Because then after a while I think we had a reputation for being rowdy and something. Steven Payne Oh, okay. Okay. BUTCH 2 Or what's a better word? Not even rowdy. But kind of these guys like to start they started taking stuff from people. Steven Payne Okay. Okay. BUTCH 2 Because we we didn't have nothing to do. We would just go around the lay-up and if we saw somebody painting. Steven Payne Sure. BUTCH 2 We take they paint. Steven Payne Yeah, yeah. BUTCH 2 So they we started having a bad reputation. And that's why a lot of people didn't come to the Concourse. Cause we would be there a lot. Or if we in the train, because you know if anybody rides the train when you coming uptown, into the Grand Concourse. Steven Payne Yeah BUTCH 2 the bench is right on the end. So I'm in the front. I'm looking. If they see you a lot of people will leave. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 You know, um, I mean, yeah, we used to watch them. And then we watch trains on the Tremont train station. Because it's a big turn. So as it's turning, you can see this side and then when it comes in, you can see this side. Steven Payne Okay, yeah, BUTCH 2 and if you saw something that you want you run a get the picture. That's when the Kodak used to have the 35 millimeter. And you would just then mail it out. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 That was then. But yeah, we'd do the Concourse and then we would do Tremont or 180th. Steven Payne Okay. Yeah. BUTCH 2 Yeah. On the 6 Train We would be at a Hunts Point. Steven Payne Sure. Yeah. Kurt Boone So 149th and the Concourse. They called that the writer's bitch but there was more than one Writer's bitch, but BUTCH 2 that was the one that was Kurt Boone The was the main one. Yeah yeah, 149th and Grand Concourse. BUTCH 2 I mean, everybody had their little spots. Steven Payne Yeah, for sure. BUTCH 2 You got guys in Brooklyn everybody hang on Utica or something. We might hang 180th. Kurt Boone Okay, BUTCH 2 you know, Kurt Boone right. Right. Right. So, I mean there're a lot of writers who became well known for for doing whole cars and, and you knew quite a few of them. BUTCH 2 I know them all dude. Kurt Boone Alright So let's talk. Some just by name. Give me Give me some reflection. So Blade, for example, like, BUTCH 2 I was down with that crew. The Crazy Five, Kurt Boone The Crazy Five. okay BUTCH 2 I was coming down off Allerton. And one day, I might have been doing a piece or just taking pictures of something. roaming the city. And I ran into those guys at McDonald's on Allerton. Steven Payne Yeah, BUTCH 2 like, Yo, you want to get down with us? And I was like, alright. There's Butch 2 The Crazy Five yeah. But there's about 50 of them. So I don't know how ya'll come up with The Crazy Five you know. Because I spoke to the girl Porsche the new girl is Porsche. And I said Porsche, you don't remember me? She said yeah You're our 28th member. I was like damn ya'll chrona chrona chronologically whatever. You know, Like that. But he came up a few times he saw me and we talked. Lee Kurt Boone Lee put out, but he mentioned you in the movie WildStyle. He wanted to be like Butch 2. Steven Payne okay, yeah, Kurt Boone so that's just goes a lot for your art. BUTCH 2 But, yeah, but like I said, it's a it's a mix of a few things. I mean, you can paint but you but than can you get paint you know, we had the keys to the to the how the station is closed at night. We had the keys we had keys to the trains you know, I had a crew that would fuck you up if you did the wrong thing it's it's a it's a blend it's a mix man. You got guys that can paint their ass off that don't leave the block. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 It's a Mix but that's how we lived. That's why That's why I told Cut I said yo ask any writer from back then just say my name. And they'll tell you Kurt Boone There's a lot of stories BUTCH 2 and they'll give you a story. Kurt Boone Crash had a story and Crash, you know. BUTCH 2 Futura Kurt Boone Futura had a story. BUTCH 2 Daze. Everybody he says Yeah, I remember you he said remember that shall we all went to Esplanade this and that okay. But that that's what that's what it was then. It was. It was Graff was a way of life. Steven Payne Yeah, BUTCH 2 It was. And I'm proud of the guys that took it to Canvas. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 And pushed the art form. And you know, it's graff is mixing with street art and, and and then it's become a commercial. But you know, let's let's get a piece of that now. Because you got some of the original MCs and DJ s that still live in the Bronx. While, you got some other guys that done bought houses in California. Dr. Dre 90 million or something? But then you got guys that? Yeah. Steven Payne Still living in the 1520s. BUTCH 2 Right. But yeah, I heard they had offered him a bunch of stuff. And he acted funny. Steven Payne Oh, okay. Okay. BUTCH 2 I think they was trying to give him a star on the Walk of Fame or something. You know, when he you know, I don't know. Steven Payne Yeah, BUTCH 2 But yeah, that's the sad part man and how they did like, all the rappers and all that they all they took that and left them high and dry. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 Wow. Steven Payne Yeah I know. BUTCH 2 All of them Herc used to write to Bambata used to write? Steven Payne Yeah, BUTCH 2 Off the record. But back then I told you before rap hip hop and all that. Do you met somebody they're gonna say what do you write? Steven Payne Yeah, yeah. So writing was it was more of a deal in the Bronx. BUTCH 2 that's the first element that's what they say in writing, everybody used to write. Steven Payne Yeah, BUTCH 2 Everybody. Kurt Boone You was in the you and Case were featured in the movie. Yeah. Style Style Wars Style Wars. So that was a good scene man you wanna talk a little about that. That scene and how BUTCH 2 I think it was, I think there's another piece of that, that they didn't show was there a piece of us walking down the train station platform. Kurt Boone I didn't see. BUTCH 2 Okay. All right, Kurt Boone I saw when ya'll was in the apartment BUTCH 2 Right. There was another part where we was walking down. We was in Esplanade because I remember that day, because I had my daughter with me. And she's like two years old. And I had her in the stroller and I had to put the stroller to the side. And that's when I started telling these guys well what are ya'll paying. Cause Y'all got us doing all this? At that scene I never saw again. Kurt Boone Okay, BUTCH 2 But like I said, if you if you look at that I I do the coaching and and advising off camera, because you see we in Style Wars Case is doing all the talking. ALl the talking Oh yeah, he's a character. And I wasn't doing no talking. Steven Payne Yeah, yeah. BUTCH 2 That's the mouthpiece he'll tell you. But God bless he's dead. That's my boy. Kurt Boone Yeah, yeah. And I saw the YouTube video interviewing you and Dondi and what was what was that? Gallery? BUTCH 2 Fashion Moda Kurt Boone Was a Fashion Moda. BUTCH 2 I think it was Fashion Moda on Third Avenue. Kurt Boone Yeah we were interviewing both of you guys. And it was interesting Dondi went on to become Rest in Peace Dondi Dondi but he became famous too. As a whole car artist. BUTCH 2 He got one whole car that's like, famous immortal Kurt Boone in Cook got Right? Yeah. BUTCH 2 Yeah. Kurt Boone But it's the whole the whole car era was when did the whole car era end? Like when they when they like Koch likes got a lot. A lot of people to clean all the trains and got a lot of police on it and. BUTCH 2 I don't know, I think from what I think that think they started treating the car with some chemical. Or something like that's where you're right? Because it would seem funny. that all of a sudden, nobody's doing nothing. But once in a while you will see something people will get, you know, beside they self and go and try something. So you'll see it here and there. But as far as the whole thing. I think most of these guys would probably still be doing it. Steven Payne Yeah. For sure. Do you remember the last one that you did? BUTCH 2 Oh, on the train. Nah, I don't that they would just coming. They were just coming. I was it was almost like you had to have you had to like to I said Refresh or update. Every week. I had to have something you know. Come out. Steven Payne Yeah. Absolutely. BUTCH 2 Because then you have Blade and them had shit. They would have shit coming out. After a while it became a game of keeping up. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 You know, Lee and them started the whole car thing. So we had to do whole cars Steven Payne Yeah, BUTCH 2 Blade never had shit coming out regular. So we had to have shit come out regular. Steven Payne Yeah, BUTCH 2 It was it was a race. Everybody was doing it. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 Everybody was racing. Kurt Boone Yeah you'll race whole cars. But they had a whole draw draw era too if he were just doing his throw-ups. BUTCH 2 No, not everybody. I mean, you might have a simple Yeah, well, I guess that's a Throw-up. Yeah. Kurt Boone A simple one. BUTCH 2 But then you had guys that all they did was Throw-ups? Kurt Boone Yeah, yeah. So what's Can you explain to the Throw-up a little bit BUTCH 2 Quick. Throw-up and pretty much explains itself? Or you can probably do two or three cars with two cans. Steven Payne Yeah, BUTCH 2 That's that's an attempt to get up to have your name just to more pieces. Like you had the guy In IN. Kurt Boone Two letters. BUTCH 2 He talking about? He got a million pieces. Steven Payne Easy to write I N a million times. BUTCH 2 And he would do on one car 20 of them. You know now now your count is up. 20 Oh, yeah, I got a million pieces. Steven Payne There's a guy in my neighborhood now who's like that? BUTCH 2 A million pieces. With about with about ten cans? type of bullshit and then sometime you can see they're not even thoroughly filled in. You might just chhhhhsshhh You be like, Come on, man. That's it eeeeh. That don't even count. Kurt Boone Yeah what a story man I it must have been such a interesting period. BUTCH 2 But I mean, if you're an artist, you can do a simple piece but then you may want to add some 3D you may want to throw some designs in there. A little cloud, one thing leads to another now you want to cloud. Now, you know, so unless you only have two cans, you're going to do a little more. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 And we didn't count pieces, Our thing our thing, was because we had Blade. We had Billy. Bic 149. Butch. So our thing was B's the letter B? Kurt Boone Oh, BUTCH 2 So, I was the king of Bs. Kurt Boone Yeah, Steven Payne for sure. BUTCH 2 Yeah. Blade, Bic, Billy. I think we have Bloodshed. Butch. It was you know, king of Bs you know, King of top-to-bottoms. King of the 2. Steven Payne Yeah BUTCH 2 Everthing was a race just putting it out there. Steven Payne Yeah. Would you ever paint any of the lines that are exclusively in Manhattan? BUTCH 2 I don't think there are any. Steven Payne No, not exclusively Manhattan but I ones that don't go to the Bronx. BUTCH 2 I would, yeah. Like, like you got to G that takes you from Brooklyn across Manhattan into Queens. The F train and shit like that. Um, I don't think I was into that. I think those are more the BMT trains. The IRT's are the ones that we have. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 BMTs, are the ones that kind of shaped like that and their silver. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 But I'm nah I don't think I ever because a lot of guys used to go out to Brooklyn to the lay-ups I didn't. we had lay-ups in our backyard. I'm not going to Brooklyn. Got our paint stashed in the station when it's locked. Kurt Boone Okay. BUTCH 2 You know, I'm taking my shit and then go two or three stops up and produce some fresh and new. Steven Payne Absolutely BUTCH 2 yeah Kurt Boone that's great. Steven Payne What about the was 3rd Ave mall was out already. That was already in the process of being dismantled by the time you started or was that BUTCH 2 Oh, yeah. I think it was gone it was gone but now. I was born right there 3809 3rd Avenue. Oh, the Claremont Parkway, but I think the 3rd Ave Ele was it was on his way out then. Steven Payne Yeah, it was. Yeah. BUTCH 2 Because not they got the buses and shit buses. It was more prevalent after that. But I remember the 3rd Ave Ele they had the little wicker seats, and shit with the fan Iremember that. Kurt Boone So I met you at Mobile Messenger Service. So how do you become a Bike messanger? How'd you get into it? BUTCH 2 Ah I don't know I guess it's quick and easy. And it was it was it was a big business too. Steven Payne Sure. BUTCH 2 Big business guys gotta get a bike. Steven Payne Do you know to ride a bike already? BUTCH 2 Yeah get you a bike get you a bag. And I think a Mobile I mean, not Mobile. Who'd I start with it was called Wing Foot. Wing Foot was on 38th and 6th, they became Dynamics Kurt Boone Oh they became Dynamics. Oh, Dynamics is big. BUTCH 2 Yeah, I know, they I think they've been there was a lot of companies merged. Kurt Boone That's right. BUTCH 2 Yeah, but I was. I was Wing Foot. And we was rockin for a while. But I was telling them too do Oh, we were getting remember they came out with biking cops. Police on bikes. I don't know if you remember that. You must have been out of the game. But this is the 90s They had police on bikes. For us. Steven Payne Yeah. Kurt Boone Yeah, BUTCH 2 But um, you going the wrong way? Sidewalk red light. Your third red light ticket is $750 Steven Payne Oh, Kurt Boone whoa that's some serious money. BUTCH 2 Yeah. I had 14 tickets that have never paid for it. And they still sitting there. Um, but they need those biking cops Now. You see all these motorized scooters? Electric bikes. I was telling them. and I laughed I said. I think everybody goes to at least one harrowing experience a day with the e-bike Steven Payne Oh, yeah, BUTCH 2 everybody. Yeah, yeah. All, on the sidewalk you be like yo! Kurt Boone What you doin? What you doing man don't you know how to ride. BUTCH 2 Yeah, um, but yeah, then I left I was in Texas for about, I can say 8 years I was down there. And I came back. I think, actually, to be honest, I think I got blackballed because I was working at Darden restaurant called Yard House. Yeah, they have I think they have Yard House in Houston. Steven Payne Yeah. Yeah. BUTCH 2 Oh, I think the big thing I was looking for Houston was Jimmy Chang, who was a Chinese restaurant. Yeah. As I said, I was in Texas. I said, I want some wings and rice badly. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 And the girl took me to Jimmy. Jimmy Changs. Steven Payne Yeah, I think BUTCH 2 It's a Chinese restaurant in Houston. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 Because you know, it's you can get a burrito on every corner. That's what's down there burrito. Yo, they got some down there where they mix corn and mayonaise's never seen it. Steven Payne Oh, yeah. Elote or somehting like that. BUTCH 2 I don't know what it's called. But it's I'm like corn and mayonaise. And it's like a delicacy. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 Wow. Steven Payne Yeah they spread it on the corn and BUTCH 2 whoa, Steven Payne a little cayenne pepper or something on it? BUTCH 2 Yeah, something like that. But um, I left. Oh, my mom's had passed in 2017. And she had a co op over here in Co-op City and I was supposed to come back for the Co Op, and I didn't put in. I put in a two week notice at Yard House. But I think I left in a week. Only reason why was because I was trying to get out of the landlord's apartment before the first before we went into the month because he gonna try to prorate or whatever all even eight days. That's a couple of done. So that's a you know, let me get out of here on the first. And I don't think Yard House like the way I exited because it was one girl Emily was going back to California. And she had visited a Yard House in California talked and everything and they arranged to transfer so I'm watching her and say Oh, well cool, because I'm going to New York. I came went to the Yard Houses there's a Yard House in Yonkers somewhere. And I talked to them and everything. Yeah okay as soon as we talk to your manager. You don't worried about it. We get you in your garden. But I never got in. Never got it. And I know. Then I went to Olive Garden. They he said oh yeah sure whatever? Never got in? Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 You know, then Yard House just opened up in Time Square. Steven Payne Oh, BUTCH 2 I said let me go there. They said they came up with something. But I said that that manager that I left? I think she really did something. Because I was there for eight years. Steven Payne Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. BUTCH 2 So that's when I went back to Mobile. I said, let me let me go back to these guys. And they took me back. Kurt Boone What was Texas like? You liked it down there or was it? BUTCH 2 It was alright. I had fun. I had me a brand new car apartment and all that you know, two three air conditioners in my apartment. Yeah, only thing about them. The bus stop. doesn't have like we have I know. It's just a bench in the middle of the grass. And it'd be 100 degrees Steven Payne And you might wait there. 30 minutes or something cause the buses don't come very often. BUTCH 2 In New York. Three days over 90 is a heatwave. In Texas, it was like 40 days over 100. I'm like yo this shit is crazy. And everybody walking around, don't let it don't let the temperature drop in Texas. If it's 40 or 50 degrees. They're panicking. I'm like what? Yeah, this feels good. I think one time before I left, they saw snow. It might have been a little flurry. Steven Payne Yeah, BUTCH 2 They went bananas. I'm like, yo, this is crazy. But uh, yeah, Texas good. I had fun. Well you know a bunch of girlfriends and all that. Kurt Boone So you was near Houston? BUTCH 2 No I was in San Antonio. Houston is two hours. Kurt Boone Oh Houston is 2 hours. BUTCH 2 Down I-10 Kurt Boone All right, BUTCH 2 And then after you got Beaumont, Katy and all that shit. Kurt Boone Did you paint down there? BUTCH 2 Yeah, yeah, they had a they had a spot called the Paint Yard. It's one of those Graff stores. So they sold paint. You go in the back. They had a wall. I had some pictures that. I don't know what happened to them. Me. I had this little kid I call him a weasel but um DAP DAP. And then of WizArt, I don't know if you WizArt He has he's a guy with his characters. He's a bad dude. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 And we collaborate on something. We had fun that day. And then I think I drove up to Dallas. And they had this wall up there. I did a piece in Dallas. San Antonio, we supposed to go Houston has the Meeting of Styles. That's what it's called in Houston. San Antonio is called Clogged Caps it's a few. It's a few conventions. They be having Clogged Caps was nice. I told you them Mexican dudes was amazing. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 And then they was playing James Brown and I was ike oh shit they have hip hop. Yeah. Everybody had the little coolers. It was a it was like a factory area. And they was rocking rocking Clogged Caps. I think I had the book or something. It was a What year was that? It had to be 2015 or something. Kurt Boone 2015 alright man, Texas super fun man. BUTCH 2 Yeah, they just getting up on Graff. And then you know, they got the all what is that? Like, Aztec Indian motif thing? They do a lot of that. And then they got they got a couple of some. They gave me some shirts some complimentary shit. Oh, The School of Fine Arts. This is for you this that that that. Yeah. Then Karen came down there. Kurt Boone Right. BUTCH 2 And see the thing was, she wanted to take a picture of me pieceing, but I had already did a piece. So we went inside, bought a Can of paint. And I'm tagging my name. And she's taking a picture of it. But see the thing is the guy that runs the walls. Any wall you're not really supposed to tag because that's gonna get people thinking that they can just tag, Steven Payne yeah, BUTCH 2 So what he did he didn't say anything like yo Butch you weren't supposed to that what they did. They went over my shit the next day. You know, TK was down there too, Kurt Boone okay, okay, BUTCH 2 but yeah, that that kind of diffused the whole friendship. I'm like, You fuck me on the Yeah. And then I think I recently spoke to the guy Oh, yo Butch you know I feel bad about that this and that man. I'm like yo but it wasn't nothing. Because it was they paint anyway. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 But that's the only thing about today. Today's artists is buying paint. And I find that hard to do. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 I find it hard to do. Steven Payne Yeah, for sure. BUTCH 2 And I know guys that are like my boy from Australia. He'll go and buy 10-15 cans but you see the thing about that. It's not like it used to be like yo, let me get some of that red His paint it's his paint. Steven Payne He doesn't share it huh BUTCH 2 no. Steven Payne Oh yeah. BUTCH 2 Which I can dig though. You buying paint but then everybody's trying to do cost effective shit they got cans for $5 $6 and shit like that. I think I had bought four cans and I was like hyperventilating. I'm like oh my God. I want paint. Kurt Boone so now you have to paint it's locked up in cages. How do you feel about that? BUTCH 2 We it's because of us, we used to empty shit out. let me tell you something you see this bookshelf? Kurt Boone Yeah, BUTCH 2 If that was all paint we would probably come in with a dolly and try to take the whole job no try to wheel the whole thing out. because we got guys to go in the back and act like they gonna steal something or they need help excuse me sir. And get him out of here you know and then we wheeling the fucking whole rack out. Yeah, we went big we wouldn't big. We had one guy used to go in the store with a big suitcase. Kurt Boone Yeah. Steven Payne Were there were there some of the stores that you're like to hit up the most you have to move around a lot? BUTCH 2 Oh, we moved around a lot. Because I mean, if you burned a store, we would go back there. Remember? I don't know your guys. Martin Paints Martin's then We had a what was the store in Queens. Was it Genovese Drugs was in Queens. Martin's Paint. And then those were like the two main Steven Payne Okay, yeah, those are the two BUTCH 2 Martin's and Genovese Drugs. Steven Payne I see. So you're going out to Genovese. And you're gonna have to get all that paint back up to the Bronx. BUTCH 2 Yeah. I mean, yeah, you you're exhilarated now. I'll be juggling them shits we had been out to Long Island and shit. We found stores that had backdoors. Steven Payne Okay, yeah. BUTCH 2 We had stores where you would have to really wait 10 or 15 minutes just to get help. Excuse me and ladies, just keep walking. Steven Payne Yeah, BUTCH 2 We'd be like, Oh, shit. Steven Payne Yeah. Yeah. BUTCH 2 Oh, and then we just come in two or three trips? Steven Payne Yeah, yeah. Yeah. BUTCH 2 But that was that might have been the 80s. It might have been not even the 80s it might have been just '70s. Because I think the 80s is when fucking angel-dust came out and all kind of shit. Yeah, drugs. That's sad. That sums it up. Shit shit start happening Everybody want to try something? You know? Which wasn't good. But yeah, it changed the game it really did. Steven Payne and had a big impact on the Graff community. BUTCH 2 Somewhat. No, because in the beginning we would go to lay-up with sandwiches. Steven Payne Yeah, BUTCH 2 Beer. Steven Payne Yeah, BUTCH 2 A couple of joints, you know, but that's all you needed. You can buy a tre-bag and get five six joints. Steven Payne Yeah, BUTCH 2 You know, so we will go we started the little parties you know get in there and puff of joint you know, okay, Yo do the outline. And you know, that thing was the hardened drug you know, that's that's like the trap smoke. You smoke weed. You get a little feeling now let me take a puff of that. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 What is that? She gave me a puff. Curiosity killed the cat. Yeah, um It depends on the individual because I know some guys that can get hi and just want to sit down and, and space out on a piece of paper. Steven Payne Absolutely. Yeah. Kurt Boone So by the time you would say, 24 was the train era over? So cuz you started at around 12 and It was a certain period that BUTCH 2 24 I think I was 1984. I was about school. I was in Bronx Community College. I left there in '85. And that's when fucking crack hit. Kurt Boone Oh, right. crack crack Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 What is that shit? Steven Payne Yeah. Kurt Boone I never tried crack. So in '84 you were still doing whole cars in '84. But they still artists out there. BUTCH 2 I don't know. I think I was at that time. I was I was just shirt and tie with the bookbag and shit. Well, let me let me say leather attache the shirt and tie. You know, I think I had a brand new car. And all that I had two three four girlfriends and stuff. Kurt Boone So you wasn't hittin the trains that much. BUTCH 2 Nah, not really. But again, there's always somebody who kind of nudges me back in. Come on man. Come on. Come on. Come on. Come on. this and that. I think I might have Case is usually the one. Come on. Come on. Come on. Come on. Yeah. But then I think at that time, rap rap rap is was getting bigger. Steven Payne Okay, that time BUTCH 2 Rap was getting bigger. And you know, we was going to different parties and stuff and like Flash and all them? Steven Payne Sure. BUTCH 2 They would have the amphitheater, somewhere down by the Lower East Side I Think. Pastor Crespo Yeah. They just tore it down. BUTCH 2 Yeah, we just had on Wildstyle 35th and isn't there , because there isn't that project like Cherry Street or some shit. Pastor Crespo That's the Vladecks Houses on Jackson. BUTCH 2 Behing the courts. Yeah, yeah. They just had something big over there. I didn't know they tore it down. I never found it. I was I'm walking up and down thing. They said, Well, you have to know where its at. because you don't hear it. You would have to know. And I was walking never found it. Pastor Crespo Right across from Jackson Park a Little bridge. BUTCH 2 Yeah. They said it was a bridge. They just had something big over there. Kurt Boone Yeah. So hip hop. I mean, obviously Hip Hop is is pioneered in the Bronx. So you was around, you know, Grandmaster Flash and a lot of these artists, you know. Do you remember hanging with Grand Master Flash at all? BUTCH 2 Nah, I've been around those guys, but I think I was closer to the Soul Sonic guys. Steven Payne Okay. BUTCH 2 Oh, daily. Bronx River. Yeah. But then at this time. People were getting like, big headed egos were swollen. I don't know. Kurt Boone Yeah. BUTCH 2 I just know there was a lot of egos. and shit, so and I'm not starstruck. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 So if you don't want to extend yourself didn't then heck with you. Steven Payne Yeah. Kurt Boone But I think the two movies came out in early 80s Style Wars and Wildstyle. I think it was 82 Steven Payne Yeah, something like that. Kurt Boone '82 '83s so you was like a movie star in 82 83? BUTCH 2 Yeah I had been in newspapers, magazines, movies, all of that. Steven Payne Yeah, Kurt Boone Books. BUTCH 2 But what's fame without fortune, give me the money. And just give me a, put my name in the credits and let me go ahead on down now. But that's what it is. Now, a lot of guys, it's is more of you know, contracts and stuff. Everything is a disclosure, stuff like that. Cause he knew when Karen came down and did the interview for the Case 2 documentary Kurt Boone Yes, BUTCH 2 She had me sign papers. Yeah. I'm like, you know, it's better it's better to kind of just talk then really interview? Kurt Boone Yeah. BUTCH 2 It's better to just talk You'll get way more in the different better way. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 But she came down and we had fun. We had dinner and stuff like that. Oh. We just they buried somebody well they didn't bury they cremated a guy. one of TFPs wives? Yeah. She was in fire a couple of weeks ago. And we had to. We had the memorial um Saturday. Yeah. Rest in Peace Sherry. Then the son is past as well of smoke inhalation. Steven Payne The Big fire in the Bronx. BUTCH 2 Not that one. Steven Payne Not that one a different one. BUTCH 2 Yeah, but I used to live in that building. Oh, really? On the 15th floor. Steven Payne That's crazy. BUTCH 2 333 East 781st, but that's right before and I was having problems with management. And that's when I left and went to Texas. Okay, Steven Payne I see. BUTCH 2 That was like '08 '07 or '08. Something like that. Yeah. But Kurt Boone yes, so that was yeah, BUTCH 2 there was another big fire on Webb. Steven Payne Oh, Kurt Boone I don't know if you heard that. But it was only one apartment that burnt and that was by his apartment. His wife got burnt and his son he had smoke inhalation. Steven Payne That's terrible. BUTCH 2 It is. Steven Payne Were there many fires in any of the places you lived? Growing up very much. BUTCH 2 I was in the Bronx Bronx was burnt down period Our hang out would be an abandoned building a burned down building. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 And then you know, they got pictures of some Hip Hop pictures where you just see bricks stacked up that's what that's what it was. Steven Payne Yeah, BUTCH 2 That was that was it? You know, swinging on a monkey bar and uh, you know Yeah, that that was the Bronx in the 80s Kurt Boone Abandoned cars burnt out cars BUTCH 2 But see this now is is is entirely different. Steven Payne Yeah, BUTCH 2 It's entire they rebuilt it you know, they got a lot of malls and you know, they trying to offer us everything. I don't know if we appreciate it, you know, because you got your restaurants you got Popeyes you got White Castle you got Chinese? Yeah, you got all the trying to offer us everything. I don't know if it's just after our money or whatever, but it's just should be decent. But it should be decent. Kurt Boone We ask every artist after the interview to tag to do a tag for us for the Library Archives. But yeah, that's one of my books, that's all so I just use this tablet. I'm gonna tear it out. And then it's going to go into library archives while we're here. So that's Futura right there. I don't know who that is some of them are your friends so BUTCH 2 this look like Kurt Boone That's the draw BUTCH 2 Oh that's what that was Kurt Boone You did that at the Bronx Museum BUTCH 2 The Bronx Museum. The one on the Concourse. Kurt Boone The Grand Concourse yeah. BUTCH 2 When was that? Kurt Boone That was ah BUTCH 2 They had bean a big show there Kurt Boone Right around that show when they did the whole BUTCH 2 that was February of last year or sometime. I know it was. Kurt Boone It was before the Covid Steven Payne Right before Covid Kurt Boone right before Covid so Futura did a like a three hour Black Book signing like he he anybody could come it was free bring your black-book and he would sign it it was really really nice. BUTCH 2 But that you can does it say Futura because of you sign in a black or I guess it was just getting his art out. But to get your name out I would expect to be able to something legible also Futura, but you know if you're going to sign 100 books Kurt Boone yeah but you went to that exhibit, right? The Bronx BUTCH 2 Yeah. It was I think that was the best event the Bronx had had in a long time. Kurt Boone Oh, right. Right. So down down in down in Miami. I was mentioning to you they have you on Graffiti in Miami, they have your name as the one of the pioneers had his own style. Right. I believe they have pictures of the Don 1, the Don 1, car that you get who photographed it, BUTCH 2 right, Kurt Boone They hanging on hanging on the wall. So how's does that feel to be in the museum? Where where they telling the story of how this art form began? and they going? Have to go by your name. Right? to kind of understand how this whole global movement started. BUTCH 2 Yeah, not surpriing that said I was there. It's not surprising. I mean, you know, if you have a, they came up with a list of the 50 best writers in New York City ever had. I think I'm number 13 or somthing. But it makes me laugh. That's why I told you that's what we was living man. Kurt Boone Right. And you didn't count how many trains You did. So that's, that's interesting too. BUTCH 2 Nah, I didn't count. I know I wasn't on that. I don't think I was on that I got new shit. Steven Payne Your production right? BUTCH 2 Like they said a day a a time, a piece at a time? Steven Payne Yeah. Yeah. BUTCH 2 I wasn't trying to like be the king. Oh, you know, like, like, in with a million pieces. Like I said, I'm king of Bs. King of top to bottoms. Shit like that? Yeah. Kurt do you have any other? Kurt Boone Yeah, I think I'm pretty good. I mean I think I'm good. Steven Payne I got a final question. Then Pastor if you have some questions, you're more than welcome. Pastor Crespo I'm just on the observation side. Steven Payne So here's a final question for you. This this is more about just the Bronx in general. What does the Bronx represent to? BUTCH 2 Home basically? Steven Payne Yeah, BUTCH 2 Bronx is home. I was born in Jacobi hospital on March 31, 1960. Oh, I done been through the Claremont. We moved to Washington Avenue. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 From there we moved to Lambert. That was a no Longfellow Longfellow. Yeah. That Hunts Point. And then from there, we moved to a Lambert. I think I was in Lambert for 20 years. Yeah. Then ah I moved out we had a girlfreid we got a place and then my mom's went to Co Op. She was up there about 25 years. Steven Payne Wow. BUTCH 2 Yeah. I came up there to get the Co Op, but it's a whole legal system. Like I was saying about signing stuff. My name wasn't on anything. So I mean, you have the option to add people to your what do they call it the affidavit Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 And I wasn't on there. So that that created a whole nother thing. But yeah I love the Bronx and Bronx has its good moments and good times. And it is places in the Bronx that are beautiful. Listen, I was at all This is. And I don't know if you guys know where Aldi's is at on Gun Hill. Steven Payne I used to go there all the time. BUTCH 2 Behind there it's beautiful. You wouldn't even know it's back there. Steven Payne Back there. With the big Hill. What road is that? BUTCH 2 I don't know the name of the street. But it's where Aldi's is back behind? Steven Payne I know what you're talkng about BUTCH 2 Yeah, behind there over. It's Immaculate Steven Payne it is BUTCH 2 I said Wow. Like a hidden jewel. Steven Payne I know. Absolutely. BUTCH 2 I love the Bronx. I like the Bronx. Bronx is home, Steven Payne yeah. Do you think living in and growing up in the Bronx Do you think that had? Like a specific impact on your style? As far as your your writing goes? BUTCH 2 Nah, not really. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 Just because, like you, you draw he like you go into a zone. Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 And in that way, wherever you are, Steven Payne you go into that zone. BUTCH 2 Right. It don't matter where you at. You know, that's why a lot of times you draw because you can just kind of block all that out. Steven Payne Yeah. And you were telling me earlier that you think art might have been a way for you like a way of escape? Or something do you want to talk about that. BUTCH 2 Well, art, music and art. I think music and art is everybody's escape cause everybody has a favorite song Steven Payne for sure. BUTCH 2 Everybody does some type of doodling? Steven Payne Yeah. BUTCH 2 It's an escape and then color? You know. And the thing about today is you don't have to be a expert at anything what you your work is your work, you know anything's allowed. That's why it's so easy to draw whatever you do. You got kids that are five years old and drawing. Steven Payne absolutely BUTCH 2 Art is life man. That's all I say, Steven Payne yeah, absolutely. Well, I think that's a good place to wrap up. And like we want to share anything else. Anything we're going to talk to talk about, that you want to talk about, or maybe any advice for artists today or anything like that. BUTCH 2 The only advice I can give to artists is just to be yourself. If you're coming back, if you're making a comeback. Come back with what you're known for. Don't try to keep up with the Joneses. Set your own bar, do what you do, or do what you're known for. You know, this guy will be his wild style, and he can do this. Let him do it. That's him. Yeah. You're known for what you do. Just stick to your stick to your guns, man. Yeah, that's it. Steven Payne Absolutely. Well, thank you so much. Butch it's been such a pleasure hearing about your life, your art, your artistic vision, everything. Really, really appreciated and really honored to have you as a first participant in this. BUTCH 2 Alright. Thank you. Kurt Boone Thank you. So CC-BY-NC-SA (Creative Commons) video Content may be utilized only for non-commercial purposes so long as equal sharing privileges are preserved and the following attribution is included: "Courtesy of The Bronx Aerosol Arts Documentary Project, The Bronx County Archives at The Bronx County Historical Society Research Library." 0 /render.php?cachefile= Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MP4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with BUTCH 2 (TFP) Description An account of the resource Oral history recorded for the Bronx Aerosol Arts Documentary Project on January 18, 2022 with BUTCH 2, a pioneer in the graffiti arts movement from The Bronx, a master of wild style lettering design, a member of The Fantastic Partners (TFP), and one of the first artists to paint whole trains as early as 1972. In this oral history, BUTCH 2 describes his time growing up in The Bronx of the 1960s and 1970s, what drew him to graffiti, how he developed some of his artistic techniques, and much more. The interviewers are Dr. Steven Payne, librarian and archivist at The Bronx County Historical Society, and Kurt Boone, prolific documentarian of urban culture for the past 40 years. The Bronx Aerosol Arts Documentary Project is a project of The Bronx County Archives at The Bronx County Historical Society Research Library. This oral history is brought to you through the contribution of Stephen DeSimone, CEO/President of DeSimone Consulting Engineers. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bronx Aerosol Arts Documentary Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022.01.18 Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context OH-BAADP.20220118 BUTCH2 graffiti TFP