Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Bronx Aerosol Arts Documentary Project Description An account of the resource The Bronx Aerosol Arts Documentary Project is a collaboration between Kurt Boone, veteran documentarian of urban culture in New York City, and Dr. Steven Payne, librarian and archivist at The Bronx County Historical Society. The project aims to document the early years of the graffiti arts movement in The Bronx through recording oral histories and collecting tags from surviving Bronx pioneers of the art form. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bronx Aerosol Arts Documentary Project Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boone, Kurt BUTCH 2 Crespo, Pastor, Jr. Payne, Steven Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource CC-BY-NC-SA (Creative Commons) Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context OH-BAADP Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MP4 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 02:32:04 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Boone, Kurt Payne, Steven Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed STAFF 161 Location The location of the interview The Bronx, NY OHMS Object Embedded OHMS XML file https://oralhistory.bronxhistoricalsociety.org/viewer.php?cachefile=OH-BAADP.20220223.xml Interview Format Audio or Video Video OHMS Content Content of OHMS Index/Transcript for searching (Hidden) 5.4 Interview with STAFF 161, Part 1 OH-BAADP.20220223 02:32:04 OH-BAADP Bronx Aerosol Arts Documentary Project Bronx Oral History Center This interview made possible through the donation of Stephen DeSimone, President/CEO of DeSimone Consulting Engineers. bxoralhistory STAFF 161 (TED) Payne, Steven Boone, Kurt MP4 staff-161-oral-history-pt1-2022-02-23.mp4 1:|20(2)|30(10)|45(10)|90(2)|113(3)|164(3)|192(7)|222(10)|277(1)|306(1)|333(9)|364(1)|386(3)|414(1)|443(1)|480(2)|506(6)|537(6)|581(7)|597(7)|624(2)|650(11)|682(2)|716(8)|745(8)|775(9)|792(13)|816(12)|862(1)|890(5)|949(8)|957(8)|991(6)|1010(4)|1070(10)|1099(9)|1144(1)|1181(8)|1212(3)|1264(3)|1296(9)|1326(16)|1356(11)|1388(9)|1412(5)|1436(15)|1474(1)|1504(10)|1520(5)|1542(13)|1558(2)|1567(9)|1596(15)|1614(2)|1640(11)|1679(7)|1739(13)|1772(6)|1788(5)|1808(12)|1833(11)|1843(5)|1867(7)|1891(6)|1951(4)|1972(11)|1997(1)|2028(5)|2037(7)|2062(7)|2084(1)|2109(3)|2167(9)|2184(2)|2214(8)|2259(7)|2281(10)|2294(11)|2318(10)|2350(1)|2380(7)|2403(4)|2423(7)|2464(2)|2495(8)|2554(3)|2579(12)|2623(10)|2672(7)|2727(3)|2739(10)|2759(2)|2773(10)|2795(6)|2816(15)|2854(9)|2876(9)|2898(12)|2923(8)|2946(4)|2980(2)|3028(13)|3052(8)|3075(11)|3098(10)|3107(1)|3130(8)|3153(5)|3189(1)|3211(9)|3250(2)|3280(2)|3305(4)|3329(5)|3353(5)|3376(12)|3400(5)|3424(9)|3440(3)|3454(12)|3483(17)|3521(3)|3527(9)|3574(1)|3604(4)|3620(2)|3629(13)|3676(1)|3709(11)|3746(11)|3770(11)|3786(13)|3810(11)|3827(3)|3852(12)|3878(1)|3901(9)|3918(1)|3941(14)|3956(15)|3996(5)|4019(14)|4043(2)|4068(7)|4097(6)|4119(1)|4160(2)|4190(1)|4210(13)|4260(14)|4294(2)|4294(5) Undefined 1 https://youtu.be/7Fa8VeXPRcQ YouTube video English 0 Introduction Steven Payne: Welcome to the Bronx Aerosol Arts Documentary Project. My name is Steven Payne, librarian and archivist at The Bronx County Historical Society. Today is February 23, 2022, and Kurt, before we introduce our main event here, you wanna go ahead and introduce yourself? Kurt Boone: Yeah, I'm, I'm Kurt Boone. I've been writing about urban culture for 40 years. Steven Payne: Alright, great, thank you, Kurt. So we're here with STAFF 161, really a true pioneer in the graffiti arts movement, there from pretty much the, the get go, when, be-, before many people at all had started writing on subway trains, and STAFF is also the founder of The Ebony Dukes Graffiti Club, really, the, the first crew, in, graffiti crew, in The Bronx . . . In this segment, Steven Payne and Kurt Boone, the interviewers, introduce themselves as well as the interviewee, STAFF 161, an early graffiti pioneer from The Bronx and founder of The Ebony Dukes G.C., the first graffiti crew based in The Bronx. Staff 161 (Graffiti artist);The Ebony Dukes G.C. (Graffiti artist group) Bronx (New York, N.Y.);Graffiti;Graffiti artists 0 70 Early Life STAFF 161: Okay, so, hello. So, my name is, is Edward. Edward is my given birth name from my mother and father. And I was born in 1956 in Metropolitan Hospital in New York City. So I was basically born and, and raised in, in the city. My first residence, my parents' first residence, and basically where they brought me when I was born was in Harlem on 117th Street and Madison Avenue . . . In this segment of his oral history, STAFF speaks about his early life in Harlem, being removed from his family to Staten Island in the foster care system at age 5, and his mother's background in St. Thomas as well as his father's background in South Carolina. He also touches on his parents' separation, how this led to him and some of his siblings being put into the foster care system temporarily, the challenges of living on Staten Island as a part of one of the few Black families during the height of the Civil Rights Movement, and the initial shock of moving at age 10 to a tenement apartment in the South Bronx, where his mother had resettled while he was living on Staten Island. "Fort Apache" (The Bronx, New York, N.Y.) 117th Street (New York, N.Y.);Bronx (New York, N.Y.);Civil rights movement;Divorce;Foster home care;Harlem (New York, N.Y.);Madison Avenue (New York, N.Y.);Metropolitan Hospital (New York, N.Y.);Migration, Internal--United States--History--20th century;New York (State). Family Court;Saint Thomas (United States Virgin Islands);South Carolina;Staten Island (New York, N.Y.);Tenement houses 0 634 Adolescence in The Bronx STAFF 161: This was a place, in, in, in The South Bronx, between Westchester Avenue and Longwood Avenue, by the name Hewitt Place—H, E, W, I, T, T Place. And a section of 161st Street intersected Hewitt Place. And, so that was basically in the heart of, of, of the section of the South Bronx that we referred to as "Fort Apache" . . . In this segment, STAFF describes the area of the South Bronx that he moved to at the age of 10, called "Fort Apache" colloquially. He describes the background of the name, the tension between residents and the 41st Police Precinct, and the general environment of the neighborhood as a result of housing deterioration and abandonment and arson. He also speaks about his apartment at 858 Hewitt Place, what children would do for fun in the neighborhood, the centrality of a back wall of a large church in street games and early graffiti culture, and the general ubiquity of graffiti in the neighborhood (especially when compared to Staten Island, with one notable exception aside). He reflects on his public school experience at nearby P.S. 130, the old desks in the school and how formative the writings and carvings on them were for his artistic imagination, his fascination with his younger brother Joseph's cartoon sketching, and the classes he was drawn to in school, especially History, English, Art, and Arts and Crafts. He then reflects on the de-funding of arts and music programs in many New York City public schools that took place while he was coming of age and the effects of this on South Bronx communities. "Fort Apache" (The Bronx, New York, N.Y.);basketball;Bugs Bunny;Casper;Flintstones;hot peas and butter (game);Intervale Avenue station;Johnny on the Pony (game);Prospect Avenue station;Ringolevio (game);Simpson Street station;Spider Man;stickball;television;Wendy the Witch 41st Police Precinct Station House (New York, N.Y.);Arson;Art in education;Bronx (New York, N.Y.);Caricatures and cartoons;Fort Apache (Motion picture);Graffiti;Hewitt Place (The Bronx, New York, N.Y.);Housing--Abandonment;Music in education;New York City--street games;P.S. 130 (The Bronx, New York, N.Y.);Southern Boulevard (The Bronx, New York, N.Y.);Tenement houses;Verrazano-Narrows Bridge (New York, N.Y.);Westchester Avenue (The Bronx, New York, N.Y.);Wood carving;Writing desks 0 1776 South Bronx of the Late 1960s and Early 1970s STAFF 161: I think, you know, in an environment like the South Bronx, and based on what the South Bronx was, was going through, and, and the disenfranchisement that was in the South Bronx of that time. The people of the South Bronx, I got to realize, in that area of the South—Fort Apache section specifically—seemed to be ostracized politically. It was like a blaming thing, like because of the high rate of fires, and the decay of the neighborhood and such, and, and the high gang, gang, street gang presence and drug addiction—you know, lot of heroin available in that part of The Bronx. And what, it seemed like that politically and in the media and such that, that those people who were living in the area were blamed for that, and I, I, I always thought that was so unfair . . . In this segment STAFF paints a vivid picture of what it was like to grow up in his section of the South Bronx during the late 1960s and early 1970s. He touches on the political disenfranchisement of the South Bronx, particularly the "Fort Apache" section, the landlord neglect of buildings and high rate of arson, drug addiction, and the presence of street gangs, and how all of these factors were used by the media to blame the people who lived in the South Bronx for all the area's ills. STAFF reflects on how he witnessed building deterioration all around him in his neighborhood, and how it often started with the disappearance of building superintendents and the subsequent cutting off of heat, which was still largely provided by coal-fired furnaces requiring daily upkeep. He also touches on the demographic makeup of his block on Hewitt Place and how some degree of housing segregation between Black and Puerto Rican residents was still maintained. He then elaborates on the atmosphere of suspicion and violence that he faced among some youth in his neighborhood as well as the positive local influences of the Civil Rights and Black Power Movements. He particularly remembers area locations associated with the Black Panthers and the Young Lords. He remembers the wider street gang culture that was emerging at this time, the colors and "outlaw" appearance associated with most of the gangs and the effect of this on school attendance, and his own attraction to the Youth Division of the Ghetto Brothers as a result of the group's Latin rock music and militant outlook, as well as the influence of older members Slick and Black Benjie. In connection with street clean-up, which was a focus of the Ghetto Brothers, STAFF reflects on the trash, rats, and stray cats and dogs that were a regular feature of his neighborhood. He relates the story he heard as a Ghetto Brother of the murder in 1971 of Black Benjie, who was trying to broker peace between warring street gangs in the South Bronx. "Fort Apache" (The Bronx, New York, N.Y.);arson;berets;colors;cut sleeves;disenfranchisement;drugs;fighting;heroin;housing deterioration;landlord neglect;militant;motorcycle boots;ostracization;outlaw;racial segregation;street gangs Addiction;African Americans;Arson--United States;Bachelors;Beck Street (The Bronx, New York, N.Y.);Benjamin, Cornell "Black Benjie" (member of the Ghetto Brothers);Black Panther Party;Black power--United States;Black Spades;Civil rights movement;Coal-fired furnaces;East 162nd Street (The Bronx, New York, N.Y.);East 163rd Street (The Bronx, New York, N.Y.);Gang colors;Gangs;Gangs--style;Gangs--truancy;Ghetto Brothers;Hewitt Place (The Bronx, New York, N.Y.);Housing--Deterioration;Housing--Landlord neglect;Javelins;Kelly Street (The Bronx, New York, N.Y.);Latin rock music;Mongols;Peacemakers;Political disenfranchisement;Puerto Ricans;Puerto Rico--Liberation;Racism in mass media;Savage Skulls;Segregation in housing;Seven Immortals;Slick (member of Ghetto Brothers);South Bronx;Stebbins Avenue (The Bronx, New York, N.Y.);Turbans;Westchester Avenue (The Bronx, New York, N.Y.);Young Lords Party 0 3180 Getting Into Graffiti STAFF 161: So, you know, that led to a few things that I decided I was gonna do, and that was 1) to, you know, come out of that environment of, or that situation of, of being a "gang-banger", so to speak, you know, part of that gang, street gang scene there in that area; and also to more or less focus in on graffiti writing. At that point, I had acquired spray paint . . . In this segment STAFF describes the process of how he got into graffiti and gradually disaffiliated with the street gangs. He remembers the intensification of gang activity at J.H.S. 52, particularly around the handball courts, and his mother's decision to place him and his brother Adam in the Seventh-Day Adventist R.T. Hudson School on Forest Avenue, where his neighbors Danny and Betina also attended. He recalls his fascination with seeing graffiti tags on the way to this school in the interior of subway cars and the thrill of meeting taggers. He also speaks about his own early tagging with the street names of "Corky" and "Mr. Ed", as well as how he got these names. He then speaks about his first experience with spray paint in connection with his block crew stealing bikes from other neighborhoods as well as the various places—stores and the superintendents' areas in tenements—where he and others would acquire cans. He speaks about the general necessity of kids shoplifting in the neighborhood, given the general lack of money and other resources. He reflects further on the phenomenon of superintendents abandoning the basements of buildings and how this facilitated the acquisition of spray paint, on the one hand, and the proliferation of heroin dens and gang clubhouses, on the other. bike stealing;block crew;Corky;fighting;handball courts;hustling;junkies;Mr. Ed;racking;shoplifting;snap back;snapping;spray paint;street gangs;tagging;Topaz Graffiti;Heroin;Housing--superintendents;J.H.S. 52 (The Bronx, New York, N.Y.);John's Bargain Store (The Bronx, New York, N.Y.);P.S. 130 (The Bronx, New York, N.Y.);Powell, Colin L.;Prospect Avenue (The Bronx, New York, N.Y.);R.T. Hudson School (The Bronx, New York, N.Y.);Savage Skulls;Seventh-Day Adventists;Spray paint;Street names;Subways--New York (State)--New York;Theodore Roosevelt High School;Woolworths 0 4235 Making His Niche Through Graffiti STAFF 161: Well, okay, see here's the thing. I'm already in the environment, and I see what it is, right? I know it's not, it's not Staten Island no more, right? And, you know, this is where I gotta, I have to be, so I have to make my niche. Now, now the first thing was, is, is learning how to defend yourself, right? So, so me and my brother seen that we were in the situation together, and we were the oldest of our siblings . . . In this segment STAFF gets into how he established a niche for himself in the early graffiti scene in The Bronx. He stresses that establishing yourself was crucial to survival in his neighborhood, remembering how he and his brother Adam (A.J.) had to learn to defend themselves and their younger siblings. He also recalls the first drawing he did with spray paint, a skull and crossbones on a church's back wall on Hewitt Place, and how this caused conflict with Hippie from the Savage Skulls, a street gang whose colors were somewhat similar. Around this time, STAFF also began to realize the contradictions of so many rival gangs being represented on his block, since he had become close with so many of these rival gang members by playing a variety of games together around the neighborhood in prior years. He realized, then and now, the social support provided by gangs, and at the time wanted to do something similar, only with graffiti. He also revisits how his daily trips to R.T. Hudson on buses and subways provided ample opportunity for exploring the emerging world of tagging (mostly interior tagging at this point in time) and opened his eyes to the possibilities of the mass transit system as a way to circulate tags. This realization, in addition to the general ubiquity of gang and political street writing and learning about the Ex-Vandals (one of the earliest graffiti crews, based in Brooklyn), influenced his decision to organize a crew on Hewitt Place specifically devoted to graffiti. STAFF also muses on the wider social significant of graffiti, particularly its potential to give voice to the voiceless, and draws a distinction between the more basic tagging of the early Signature Era and the more intricate tagging of the Stylistic Signature Era, which took off particularly in The Bronx during 1970–1972. canes (walking sticks);celebrity;colors;Corky;defense;disenfranchisement;interior tagging;Johnny on the Pony;jumping game;Mr. Ed;notoriety;ostracization;Playboy Bunny;ringolevio;skelzies;skull and crossbones;street gangs;tagging 2 Seventh Avenue Express;3 Seventh Avenue Express;5 Lexington Avenue Express;A.J. (graffiti artist);Black Spades;BMT Broadway Line;Boston Road (The Bronx, New York, N.Y.);Bug 170 (graffiti artist);East 161st Street (The Bronx, New York, N.Y.);Eddie 181 (Graffiti artist);El Marko 174 (graffiti artist);Ex-Vandals (graffiti artist group);Exploration, urban;Fighting;Flint 707 (Graffiti artist);Gangs;Gangs--Social aspects;Ghetto Brothers;Graffiti;Graffiti--Signature Era;Graffiti--social significance;Graffiti--Stylistic Signature Era;Hewitt Place (The Bronx, New York, N.Y.);Hippie (member of Savage Skulls);IRT Third Avenue Line;Joe 182 (graffiti artist);Kool Herc (Graffiti artist);Kool Kevin 1 (Graffiti artist);Lee 163 (graffiti artist);Phase 2 (Graffiti artist);Prospect Avenue (The Bronx, New York, N.Y.);Saint (Motion picture);Savage Skulls;SJK 171 (Graffiti artist);Spin (Graffiti artist);Spray paint;Staff 161 (graffiti artist);Stay High 149 (Graffiti artist), 1950-2012;Street games;Subways--New York (State)--New 0 6126 Emergence of "STAFF" STAFF 161: Okay, so "Staff", "Staff" came about like, like the early part of '70, when I—in, in the culture of, the street gang culture, and in the culture of the day, you had these walking sticks. Not, now I'm doing like this, but you had the ones that you would make. Guys would walk around with golf clubs, with golf clubs, right, and, you know, you know a 9-iron, you know, a golf club, and, as a weapon, and as, as a cool thing, you know, a walking stick. And then you had guys that would make their own, you know, get a piece of tree limb and cut out their own walking stick, and shellac it . . . In this segment STAFF narrates how he developed the tag "STAFF". He remembers the phenomenon of walking sticks at the time, both as a weapon and as a result of a rising consciousness of Afrocentrism, with dashikis, Afros, and canes in vogue. He also recalls the impact of the imagery of Charlton Heston in The Ten Commandments, and how this led him to carve his own large staff from a piece of wood he found in Crotona Park. Although others in the neighborhood called him "Staff" in jest at first, the name stuck, and he adopted it as his tag and identity. STAFF also reflects on the historical nature of all human behavior and culture, including graffiti, and makes links between elements of the Civil Rights and Black Power Movements of the day—particularly Malcolm X's discussion of "slave names"—and the desire of Black and Brown graffiti writers to create their own new identity. This leads him to a discussion of graffiti as particularly a youth movement and one of the earliest elements of a nascent "hip hop" culture, the full content and very name of which would emerge only years later. "We Shall Overcome";afros;canes (walking sticks);dashikis;golf clubs (sports equipment);Mr. Ed;slave names;staffs (walking sticks);tag;youth movement Afrocentrism;Black Panther Party;Bug 170 (Graffiti artist);Crotona Park (The Bronx, New York, N.Y.);Graffiti--as youth movement;Heston, Charlton;King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968;Lee 161 (Graffiti artist);Naming;National Baptist Convention of the United States of America;Staff 161 (Graffiti artist);Staten Island (New York, N.Y.);Stay High 149 (Graffiti artist), 1950-2012;Super Kool 223 (Graffiti artist);Superheroes;Ten commandments (Motion picture : 1956);Weapons;X, Malcolm, 1925-1965 0 6699 Graffiti, Hip Hop, and Identity STAFF 161: Yeah, so I was saying the thing with hip hop culture, as they call it now, "hip hop culture": now, just like I mentioned that on the street in that community where I was there was prevalent markings, markings that we referred to as "graffiti", graffiti is basically markings and sketching and, you know, other things that's in the public form. That was, it's part of the community, it's part of what I would perceive, the culture of that community to basically mark your turf, make your presence known by putting your mark in the community . . . In this segment STAFF speaks about the graffiti as an early component of a wider emerging hip hop culture, which he defines as a youth movement primarily concerned with creating new identities for and by Black and Brown youth. He recalls the ubiquity in his neighborhood not only of street writing but also of MCing (in the form of loudly playing records in public places) and "wild" dancing (primarily through the celebratory, sometimes drunken dances of street gangs). He also reflects on the role that the de-funding of public music and art programs had in the development of these more DIY street cultural expressions. He revisits what he sees as the intimate connection between these new expressions of culture among Black and Brown youth, on the one hand, and what Malcolm X struggled for, on the other. In connection with this discussion, STAFF elaborates on the meaning that he assigned his tag: "Seek Truth Always Faithfully Forever." As one among other new means of youth self-expression, graffiti, STAFF relates, naturally developed more intricate ways of self-elaboration, with the generation of taggers of the early Signature Era (including Kool Herc, before he got into MCing) largely fading away and the more elaborate taggers of the Stylistic Signature Era taking their place. breaking;Corky;drawing;embellishment;emceeing;graff writing;graffiti;hip hop;identity;Mr. Ed;self-expression;splif;stylistic;tagging A.J. (Graffiti artist);Art in education;Black Spades;Break dancing;Bug 170 (Graffiti artist);Dewitt Clinton High School (New York, N.Y.);DJ Kool Herc;DJing;El Marko 174 (Graffiti artist);Gangs;Graffiti;Graffiti--Signature Era;Graffiti--Stylistic Signature Era;Hip-hop;Joe 182 (Graffiti artist);Junior 161 (Graffiti artist);Lee 163 (Graffiti artist);MCing;Music in education;Saint (Motion picture);Staff 161 (Graffiti artist);Stay High 149 (Graffiti artist), 1950-2012;Super Kool 223 (Graffiti artist);Taki 183 (Graffiti artist);X, Malcolm, 1925-1965;Youth cultures 0 7399 Graffiti Movement Takes Off STAFF 161: Yeah, so, yeah, so by '71, even '70 you started seeing a few tags that would be coming on the exterior of the train, and so it started to build up. Now, a lot of people—again, everything is time specific, and you gotta understand the political, social factors that happened, were happening in The Bronx, in New York City, in the world at that time, why, why these things happened. And again, New York going through a fiscal crisis and stuff like that: they weren't cleaning the trains . . . In this segment STAFF reflects on various factors that led to the explosion of graffiti as part of the wider youth culture that came to be called hip hop. He mentions the general disrepair of subways in New York City at the time as one factor, alongside the incredible resolve of youth in the South Bronx (and places like it) to create their own culture, even though public funding for cultural training and activities was being cut during the same period. STAFF also reflects further on graffiti as an integral part of what would eventually come to be called "hip hop culture", since all of the elements of this culture, at least in some form, were organically connected in his neighborhood in the early 1970s. He realizes that this was not the case in every neighborhood, and that graffiti developed in more isolation from new techniques of MCing and dance elsewhere. He also touches on the appeal in the community of rock music like the Rolling Stones, Led Zeppelin, Jimi Hendrex, Black Sabbath, and Santana, even though this was not the kind of music heard primarily in the streets. exterior;fiscal crisis;inspiration;maintenance;tagging Black Sabbath (Musical group);Break dancing;Ghetto Brothers;Graffiti;Hendrix, Jimi;Hip-hop;Led Zeppelin (Musical group);MCing;Rolling Stones;Santana (Musical group);South Bronx;Subways--Maintenance and repair;Subways--New York (State)--New York 0 7720 Formation of The Ebony Dukes G.C. STAFF 161: Very good, so. Okay, so, so by 1970, right, there, again, like I said, I recognized that there was numerous people in my community that, right, on my block—not even community, on my block, that were actual taggers. I felt a responsibility to organize them, right, and, and so we could be unified in what we were doing on that block . . . In this segment STAFF narrates the formation of The Ebony Dukes G.C. in the Spring of 1970. He mentions that leading up to the formation he had realized that there were people who were pursing tagging as a full-time activity and not just something incidental to their environment, all centered around the New York City transit system. He also remembers how instrumental the technique of "motion tagging"—doing a tag while a subway is temporarily stopped at a station—helped facilitate the movement from the interior to the exterior of trains. STAFF then recalls Birdie, his friend Danny's uncle, and how Birdie would invite him along on painting jobs, during which he would tell STAFF old war stories from the original Ebony Dukes, a gang in Harlem during the 1940s and 1950s. Fascinated by these stories, STAFF decided he wanted to preserve this history specifically through forming a graffiti crew of the same name. He also wanted to escape street gang culture and realized that the Ghetto Brothers, of which he was still a part, did not always look kindly on graffiti tagging. All of this led STAFF to form The Ebony Dukes Graffiti Crew in the Spring of 1970. The original lineup consisted of seven members, all from Hewitt Place: Staff 161, All Jive 161, Dynamite 161, Topaz 1, Hot Sauce 575, King Kool 156, and Super Slick 156. STAFF remembers making membership cards for the crew at a relatively early date, as it started to spread outside the neighborhood. He reflects on some of his motivation underlying the membership cards—i.e., inclusion of youth otherwise excluded from this kind of thing—as well as how he would produce the cards. He ends by remembering a few women involved in graffiti at the time, both within The Ebony Dukes and without, and stresses that women were largely excluded from participating in graffiti due to still prevalent notions of male chauvinism. badge;Birdie;boosting;colors;divide and conquer;exterior;graffiti;hustling;index cards;interior;membership card;motion tagging;painting;preservation;racking;tagging Adam 12 (Graffiti artist);All Jive 161 (Graffiti artist);Barbara 62 (Graffiti artist);Black Benjie (member of Ghetto Brothers);Blade (Graffiti artist);Bronx (New York, N.Y.);Clubs;Dr. Soul 1 (Graffiti artist);Dynamite 161 (Graffiti artist);Ebony Dukes (Gang);El Marko 174 (Graffiti artist);Eva 62 (Graffiti artist);Felt-tip markers;Ghetto Brothers;Graffiti;Graffiti--Women;Hewitt Place (The Bronx, New York, N.Y.);Hot Sauce 575 (Graffiti artist);King Kool 156 (Graffiti artist);Kivu 1 (Graffiti artist);Line 149 (Graffiti artist);Male chauvinism;Segregation;Staff 161 (Graffiti artist);Stay High 149 (Graffiti artist), 1950-2012;Subways--New York (State)--New York;Super Slick 156 (Graffiti artist);Sweet Tea 163 (Graffiti artist);The Ebony Dukes G.S. (Graffiti artist group);Topaz 1 (Graffiti artist);Woolworths 0 Part 1 of an oral history recorded for the Bronx Aerosol Arts Documentary Project on February 23, 2022 with STAFF 161, a true pioneer of the graffiti arts movement in The Bronx, and the founder of the first Bronx graffiti crew, The Ebony Dukes Graffiti Club. In this oral history, STAFF 161 describes his time growing up in Harlem, Staten Island, and the South Bronx of the 1960s and 1970s and how the Bronx context especially shaped his and others' approach to graffiti during this time period. Steven Payne Welcome to the Bronx Aerosol Arts Documentary Project. My name is Steven Payne, librarian and archivist at the Bronx County Historical Society. Today is February 23 2022. And, Kurt, Before we introduce our main event here, you want to go ahead and introduce yourself? Kurt Boone Yeah. I'm Kurt Boone and I've been writing about urban culture for 40 years. Steven Payne Alright, great. Thank you, Kurt. So we're here with Staff 161 really a true pioneer in the graffiti arts movement, there from pretty much the the get go when before many people at all had started writing on subway trains. And Staff is also the founder of the Ebony Dukes Graffiti Club, really the first crew and graffiti crew in the Bronx. And really excited to hear about this early history from from Staff today. And Staff, we begin these oral histories by asking people to talk a little bit about their family's history and background if they know it, and some of your earliest life experiences. STAFF 161 Okay, so hello. So my name is Edward. Edward is my given birth name from my mother, and father, and I was born in 1956. In Metropolitan Hospital here in New York City. So I was basically born and raised in the city. My first residence, my own my parents first residence, and basically, where they you know brought me when I was born, was in Harlem, 117 Street in Madison Avenue, where they were living my mother and father were living together there. And so I was the first firstborn of nine children that, you know, my mother eventually had. So there, is where I got my start in the city. Eventually, I was moved from my mother's home, right. Through a court action, family court action after my parents' marriage, you know, dissolved. I wouldn't say dissolved, but they separated. Steven Payne Sure. STAFF 161 My mother and father and my mother came to the attention of the family court with her children. I had another brother born after me by that point, my brother, Adam, and I had two twin brothers. After that, David and Daniel. So at that point, is where my mother and father had separated. Steven Payne Sure. STAFF 161 And my mother came to the attention of the family court here in New York City. And eventually, her children, which was my three younger brothers were removed from her along with myself from her and placed in foster care, which were all of us had foster care homes in Staten Island. Steven Payne Okay. STAFF 161 At that time, right. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 And we remained in foster care, at least me and my next youngest brother after me. Adam, we remained in foster care for the duration of five years before we returned to my mother's care or custody. Steven Payne Sure, STAFF 161 Which she she was living in the Fort Apache section of the South Bronx Steven Payne Okay she moved up there. Within those five years. STAFF 161 Yes. Steven Payne Okay. STAFF 161 That was when I returned to her. That's where we went to the Fort Apache section of the South Bronx. Steven Payne Sure, sure. And do you know much about how your mother and father ended up in New York and, you know, before they had children or anything like that, STAFF 161 okay, so my mother has a Caribbean background. She was born in, in, in the Virgin Islands, St. Thomas in the Virgin Islands. And she came here with her mother which my grandmother, my maternal grandmother, with her siblings, my mother had five or six younger siblings at that point, right. Now, some of her siblings were born here, but my mother and at least three of her youngest siblings were born in the Virgin Islands like her. So my maternal grandmother came here. In I would say, the, the early 50s. Steven Payne Okay, STAFF 161 Early 50s or with her, my mother and the rest of her, her children in the early 50s from the Virgin Islands. Steven Payne Sure. STAFF 161 And basically they are residing in Harlem. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 Now um after, My mother was like, she got here when she was 16. But after she was like, 19 years old, I believe she met my father. Steven Payne Okay. STAFF 161 In Harlem. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 Now my father is originally from South Carolina. Steven Payne Okay. Sure. Yeah. STAFF 161 Alright. And they, you know, got together and eventually were married. And somewhere during that time, or, or just before, I'm not sure, when my grandmother deceased, but my mother took up the care of her siblings. Steven Payne Sure. Yeah. STAFF 161 And, and along with her marriage, and the resulting children that she had from my father, Steven Payne She had her hands full, huh? STAFF 161 That's what the conflict came in. And the family court came in and then saud, you know, Miss, you can't have your siblings. Right. Plus your four children. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 And at that point that had created a rift between my mother and father. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 And my father basic basically exited this situation. Steven Payne Sure. STAFF 161 So here's my mother, with her four children, plus her siblings trying to juggle this, this family situation which didn't work out, of course. And so um four of our children went into foster care, including myself, and as well as two of her younger sisters. Steven Payne Yeah, yeah. Wow. And what was Staten Island like when you were there for you said five years? STAFF 161 Oh, yeah. Now you got to understand now this is now the early 60s When I say the early 60s, right. I'm about 62, 63. At least. Well, even earlier than that, because I was born in 56. So by the late 50s, the court action, had probably came in like maybe in 59. Steven Payne Okay. STAFF 161 60s right. Kurt Boone You were about 4 years old. STAFF 161 Yeah, I went into foster care when I was five years old. And I left when I was, like, 10, I returned return to my mother when I was 10, 10 years old. And that time she was living in the South Bronx. But ah, yeah, Staten Island. Staten Island was, you gotta understand the times, in the early 60s, the height of the Civil Rights Movement, Steven Payne yeah. STAFF 161 And other movements that were happening. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 So Staten Island was like less than one 1% non-white? Steven Payne Yeah, very little. STAFF 161 less than 1%. Non-white, and even today Staten Island remains like a very conservative type of environment. But it was it was a little more dramatic. At that point. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 So so like to two young black kids, right. I'm staying with one of the very few non-white families on Staten Island was, was a little dramatic, Steven Payne I'm sure. Yeah, STAFF 161 It was a it was a nice, middle class type of environ, working class, middle type of environment. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 But the fact that we're in the middle of the civil rights movement in this environment where there's like, a population of less than 1% non-whites, who I was a part of, it was pretty dramatic experience to me, Steven Payne I'm sure. Yeah, STAFF 161 but, soon after I say like 1965 I was returned to my mother in the South Bronx. And basically it was a whole new experience for me at that point from coming from Staten Island, Staten Island, basically a middle class working class type of environment and in a residential home house sure to this tenement environment in, in the South Bronx. That was basically a dramatic change. Steven Payne Which street did she live on when you when you moved up there? STAFF 161 This was a place in the South Bronx between Westchester Avenue, and Longwood Avenue. Steven Payne Okay, sure, STAFF 161 uh, by the name of Hewitt Place at H E W I T T, Steven Payne yeah, STAFF 161 Place, and a section of 161st Street intersected Hewitt Place. And so that was basically in the heart of a section of the South Bronx that we referred to as Fort Apache. And the reason that we referred it was referred to as Fort Apache was because the station after where was closest to my or the station that was closest to where we were living at was Prospect Avenue where the 2 and number the 5 IRT trains stopped at. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 Where we live that Prospect Avenue, and the following station, going uptown would be Intervale Avenue. Steven Payne Sure. STAFF 161 And the station right after that would be Simpson. Right off of, Simpson Street, there was the 41st precinct. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 And the 41st precinct was the jurisdiction in that general area. And the 41 precinct was dubbed or renamed. The Fort Apache. Steven Payne Sure. STAFF 161 So Kurt Boone Did that slang term come from the streets? I did the movie. People come up with that name. STAFF 161 Okay, so you mentioned the movie. So eventually a movie with Paul New starring Paul Newman was, was made about that area Fort Apache, South Bronx. I believe, you know, the police. The police labeled it Fort Apache. Right. And, and I, and that was because of the perspective that I guess they had, that they had a fort that was built in the midst of a very hostile environment. Right. Yeah. For them. Yeah. Yeah. So it's it Yeah. So it became the normal label for for for that, that area, the South Bronx Fort Apache. Kurt Boone So when you were in elementary school, did you start drawing then? Or did you play sports like basketball? Baseball? football. STAFF 161 Yeah. Okay. So here's the thing, the environment. Right, was dramatically different. Steven Payne Sure. STAFF 161 Coming from this Staten Island area where I was in foster care. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 The South Bronx was was generally a slum. It was very rundown, a lot of abandoned and, empty areas of it, when I say bad and empty buildings were tore down and rundown, and some of them were demolished. Due to high occurrences of fires, Steven Payne sure. STAFF 161 A lot of fires in the area. And, and as a result of the fires, some of the buildings were demolished and had these large, empty lots for blocks and blocks. You know, so it gave this appearance that it was like a war zone. And there was like, almost like heavy shelling in the area. And and, and, you know, destruction that follows of course, after shelling, just look gave that appearance. Steven Payne Yeah, yeah. STAFF 161 Yes. Steven Payne What was your, the building that you lived in, like as far as the state of it? STAFF 161 Okay, so I was on the Westchester Street, which was the main street that ran through the neighborhood. I was on the Westchester end of Hewitt Place. Steven Payne Okay. Okay. Yeah. STAFF 161 And my building was 858. Right next to the last building on that side of Hewitt Place, which was 862. Steven Payne Okay, STAFF 161 so 862 and 858. Right. And then there was a following row of tenement buildings on on the street. But 862 was the last residential building on that end of Hewitt Place. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 Before you got to Westchester Avenue, and then you had a few commercial establishments that led into Westchester Avenue. Steven Payne Sure. Sure. Kurt Boone So so. So why you was this young kid, you know, and you see photos of the kids playing in empty, lots and doing all kind of like acrobatic stuff or couches, you do a lot of different creative games. with what they have? STAFF 161 Yeah, Kurt Boone So what was your experience? What kind of games did you like Butch Two talked about playing football on the street? STAFF 161 Okay, so, yeah, Kurt Boone Tackle football on the street. STAFF 161 Yeah, so basically, it was an adolescent mind, it will make their own fun, regardless of, of the environmental circumstances, how traumatic or bad it may be. You'll see kids usually, you know, to make their own fun. So we had games like, like Ringolevio, right. And Johnny on the Pony and Skelzies Steven Payne Yeah, STAFF 161 right. We used to play stickball in the middle of the street. You know, it was a lot of games, you know, Hot Peas and Butter. You know, we used to make our own makeshift basketball hoop out of the frame for chairs. Yeah, we would make a you had this window on the street. That we was at there across the street from from the building a row of tenement buildings? Steven Payne Yeah, STAFF 161 on my end of Hewitt Place, there was this huge church building that's still there to this day that kind of dominates that area. Huge church building. Right, that ran the course from Westchester Avenue to where 161st Street intersected on you Hewitt Place Steven Payne sure, STAFF 161 and that church building had this huge wall. Right. And that's where we were like, on one in the bars with one of the windows of of the church, we would put the, the, the frame for the chair what we used as a basketball hoop. Steven Payne Okay, STAFF 161 And played right, you know, against that wall there. Kurt Boone Yeah. STAFF 161 That wall also served as a beginning stage of some major graffiti tagging. Steven Payne Oh, okay. STAFF 161 Okay, so now, the thing about the most dramatic one of the most dramatic things about the South Bronx, when I first you know, came into the area was the writing. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 A lot of writing on walls and surfaces in, which was it was I never really noticed that Steven Payne Sure. STAFF 161 to that extreme in Staten Island it was almost non existent. You know, and In Staten Island. I did have a pre-experience seeing it. When um because at the time I was living in Staten Island, they was just building the Verrazano Narrows Bridge, not too far from where I was living with the foster parents there with the Verrazano Narrows Bridge that was being built. It was in construction during that period, and I used to, you know, it was a distance from the house but I used to go over there. And like, right over in the construction area, Steven Payne yeah. STAFF 161 But basically under where, you know, the, the base of the bridge was being built. I would see some of my my first experiences seeing you know, graffiti tagging, right. Right in Staten Island that was, you know, very minimal. That was like the most, you know, biggest experience. I've you know, seeing it. But again, the South Bronx, when I first arrived, there was like, dramatic. As far as amount of writing that I saw. It was like, just about everywhere, you know, you know, the exterior of buildings and the interior of buildings. Steven Payne Sure, sure. STAFF 161 And so that was based and even in the school, I used to go my first school, public school. in um that's that part of the Bronx, South Bronx, on Hewitt Place. In Fort Apache section was PS 130, which was down the street on Hewitt Place on the other side of Hewitt Place near like, more or less 156th Street. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 But on 156 Street and Southern Boulevard. Steven Payne Sure, STAFF 161 right. So it was, some walking distance from where I was living at 858, Hewitt Place and that was, you know, my first grades public grade school location, PS 130. And I did my first years of public school there. Now, In the school, right, there was like these wooden desks. Kurt Boone Yeah, STAFF 161 right. And, you know, I'm talking about the old school wooden desks with the inkwell. Steven Payne Oh, STAFF 161 yeah. So that's how old it was the inkwell, it's like you dip the pen in the but. So they had right the desks. And the desks were very interesting to me. I thought it'd be an understatement to say I was a little bit distracted in school. Right? Um, I just got in the habit of doodling, doodling on the desk, writing and drawing stuff. It always seemed to be somewhat of a therapeutic type of thing for me to draw or sketch things. And you had these amazing carvings and writings on those wooden desks. Yeah, and that just, you know, I would just sit there in different, you know, sometimes I'll be at this desk or that doesn't, it wasn't a standard desk that I was at. And I would just be amazed at the writings and the carvings that were in. On the desk. Steven Payne Yeah, STAFF 161 you know, yeah. And so I kind of got involved in doing those writing some carvings through the doodlings, right, Steven Payne sure. STAFF 161 Or You can carve something out into the desk, or you can just, you know, draw or write what your because you had pens and pencils. Steven Payne Yeah, yeah. STAFF 161 Yeah. So Kurt Boone that kind of writing you. maybe. I know that what I was seeing and you would say, Oh, Johnny loves Carol, or, you know, you put girlfriend and boyfriend style, you know, STAFF 161 well, yeah. Okay, so are you talking about like, like, General? General graffiti writing? Yeah. This was more or less like, um, like, some artistic renderings? Yeah, like, sketchings and stuff like that. And people would leave their names. Steven Payne Yeah. Kurt Boone Oh, STAFF 161 yeah. leave their names. Right. Yeah. So yeah. So yeah, the romantic type things like, you know, they were there too. But this was more or less. People would like, like, draw things and carve things into those those wooden desks. Kurt Boone cartoon characters, or the famous, like spider man? STAFF 161 Yes. Stuff like that. Yeah. And, and see, um, you know, I wasn't really like, you know, very aware of the subconscious of it at that point. Steven Payne Sure. STAFF 161 Of my ability to sketch things or write things. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 Because I had a younger brother that I met when I came from Staten Island to my mother's home in in the South Bronx. Right. My brother Joseph was he just was extremely talented from from a youth and he would draw things. He would draw things on sight. I never forget like, like the early cartoons. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 Like your Flintstones and the Jetsons. Woody Woodpecker, Casper, Bugs Bunny, Casper the Friendly Ghost, and Joseph basically was just getting out of diapers. It was amazing that he would sit in front of the TV. Right? And this time, we're talking about, you know, still black and white TVs, Steven Payne yeah, STAFF 161 And the big cabinet TVs, furniture type things with the big screen and antenna that sat on top, you know, what, you know, big antenna? Dial the antenna, and so forth. You know? Yes. So, um, Joseph we would, you know, my mother had that, you know? And, um, you know, which is, you know, a blessing in a lot of ways, you know, being, you know, a poor, a poor woman by herself at this point. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 And, and I had a four, four other brothers and sisters. Right, that I'm just meeting. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 Because in the interim, while I was in foster care, my mother had other children. So I came into this environment, where I'm just meeting new brothers and sisters. And Joseph being one of them. Steven Payne Sure. STAFF 161 Yeah. And other brothers and sisters. were younger, of course, we had David and Daniel, and Adam, who were in foster care with me. Right? They were just under me and in age, and then Joseph came next. And Joseph was the one that was the one that that was very artistic. In, he would, he would draw the Flintstones just sitting in front of the TV, just like that, you know, he'd get a piece of paper and a pencil. And he would just draw the Flintstones. And um Casper the Friendly Ghost, or Wendy, the Witch and, you know, yeah, Bugs Bunny, just like that. And to this day, you know, he's, you know, he still draws. So I was amazed by that. And now in Staten Island. While I was in grade school, I had some indication because there was this like that in the grade school that I was in Staten Island. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 There were desks old desks like that. But they weren't. Marked as much as these desks that were in PS 1 30. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 But they were markings. Because they're wooden desks they're wooden desks those old wooden desks. And but they weren't as marked as the ones that I saw in PS 130. And so I would say that, that was like the really beginning I didn't really start drawing too much on paper. As opposed and this is like you know, in retrospect, it kind of like doing that I started marking on surfaces like that, before I actually really got into drawing on paper. Steven Payne Sure, sure. STAFF 161 Right. So those wooden desks, those old wooden desks with that inkwell, you know, were like, basically, like, my first sketching pads, Steven Payne wow. Wow, STAFF 161 My first sketching pads, and so I quickly realized that, you know, maybe it was a genetic thing, and, but I could sketch certain, you know, basic things too, as well. So I got into, you know, sketching and drawing things to basically as a distraction in school. I was a little bit distracted in school. Steven Payne Sure. STAFF 161 I had classes that I appreciate it more than others. Right. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 English in and writing classes and history classes. I appreciated. And, of course, art classes. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 He had these arts and crafts classes back then. That you got to be creative. Steven Payne Sure. Yeah. STAFF 161 To my dismay, New York was going through a fiscal crisis at that time. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 And the funding for a lot of those music and art classes. Right were taken away. Steven Payne Yep. STAFF 161 And so they ceased to exist. And I think, you know, in an environment like the South Bronx, based on what the South Bronx was, was was going through, and the disenfranchisement that was our Bronx at that time in the people in the South Bronx. I got to realize, in that area of the South Bronx, Fort Apache section specifically seem to be ostracized. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 Politically Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 It was like a blaming thing. Like, because of the high rate of fires. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 And the decay of the neighborhood and such. And the high gang, gang, street gang presence. Steven Payne Sure. STAFF 161 and drug addiction, you know, a lot of heroin. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 Available in that part of the Bronx? And what? It seemed like that politically, an immediate such that that those people that were living in the area were blamed for that. Steven Payne Absolutely. STAFF 161 And I always thought that was so unfair. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 Because what I got from the decay of the, the buildings, the tenement buildings that were in the area, is that, okay? If those people, they're renting, that building, you know, the upkeep of the building, is the responsibility of the property management and the landlord. And that was basically non existent. A lot of those buildings, right? They were, at least most of the buildings during that time were heated, heated, you know, heat and hot water. with the old coal burning furnaces. So I remember the old coal burning furnaces where the trucks would come in, and they would have this shaft, this slide that would go down and attach into the basement of the building. And they would just just have the coal, coal slide into the basement, and remember that the superintendent that have to shovel the coal into the furnace to keep the buildings heated. Steven Payne Yeah. Yeah. STAFF 161 And that seemed to dismantle, you know, very quickly you know because you had to have you had to have a superintendent that would maintain that, that those coal burning furnaces, you know, because you had to take out the ashes. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 Yeah. And, you know, so it was a big job to do that plus the, to sweep and mop the building and do repairs and such like that. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 Yeah. But um, this, this, this whole block here, on Hewitt Place was a was a good representation of the decay of that whole area of the South Bronx. Steven Payne Sure. Wow. Oh, yeah, sure. So what what about the people who lived in your building or on Hewitt Place? What kinds of people lived on the block? Or was your family close with? STAFF 161 Okay, so the area was generally African American and Hispanic, mostly on Puerto Rican, Steven Payne yeah, STAFF 161 Hispanics, that lived on the block. My Side of Hewitt Place including 862 was the last residential building and my building was 858 and then it proceeded to go up, you know, the street towards Longwood my side, a lot of African Americans right. And then it seemed like it was only segregated between Hispanics and African Americans on the same block. And then you had, like, in my building, you only had one Hispanic family on the ground floor. On my building. And you didn't see Hispanic families. Until you got like, towards the middle of the block near like, maybe 161st Street. Steven Payne Okay. STAFF 161 Right. You had another Hispanic family there. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 Right. And that didn't change for a while. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 Right. So mostly African American and Hispanic families. Steven Payne Sure. STAFF 161 Yeah. So my thing was, like, you know, I was the new kid. Me and my brother, Adam, right. Were the new kids on the block and, you know, in a hostile environment, but they it was definitely hostile. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 Right. Um, you could be and we were, we could and we were singled out, as you know. you know targets like who, who you? Where you come from? Steven Payne The kids on the block. STAFF 161 Yeah. And so Kurt Boone this is like 10 years old, right? STAFF 161 10 years old? Yeah, we ten me and um Adam is like one year under me. So he's nine. And I'm ten. So a lot of fights. A lot of fights, especially like, in school, right? Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 from going to school and back a lot of fights in school, after school, a lot of fights. And you know, you got the street gang presence as well. Steven Payne Sure, STAFF 161 Which is starting to develop more now we're this is the 60s. Steven Payne Yeah, STAFF 161 This is like, I returned to my mother in the South Bronx in 1965. So this is the 60s or mid 60s. At the height of the Civil Rights Movement, and other movements that were happening. And those movements were that were reflected in the neighborhood the street that I was on. Steven Payne Sure. STAFF 161 And I remember on Beck Street, okay, which was on the other side of Longwood Avenue, I ran across Longwood Avenue, Beck Street. But I'm on the other side of Longwood Avenue on Beck Street, you had like, like a safe house for the Black Panther Party? Steven Payne Ah, STAFF 161 yeah, Steven Payne sure. STAFF 161 And I remember like, you know, getting to know and frequently seeing those people. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 Right. And you also had, I believe, on Kelly street, a location where the Young Lords was, so you had these militant militant groups that were in the neighborhood? Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 As well as on street gangs. Street basic street gangs. And when I say street gangs, the outlaw street gangs. Outlaw street gangs were like, the prototype of say, like, the Hells Angels type of appearance with Kurt Boone The Jacket STAFF 161 Yeah, with the cut sleeve, denim jackets. And the, the colors on the back, which was the rocker, top rocker, you know, and a bottom rocker, and sent the patch. Steven Payne Sure. STAFF 161 And even though that was, you know, in a lot of respects, frightening in a sense, when you would like see them? Kurt Boone Yeah, STAFF 161 It to me, it was very attractive. Steven Payne Absolutely. STAFF 161 Right. Now. Now, now, now, you might say that, that's odd, but yet, it's attractive. You know, and I've had my experiences before are kind of more or less with what I would call crewed up. Steven Payne Sure. STAFF 161 Right. I had my experiences where, you know, being the new, you know, kid in the, in the block, when I got singled out, right, being by walking by yourself as as a as a youth in that environment. Right. You get singled out by the street gang, street gangs are all like, like wolf packs, or like wolf packs, that would like single out a lone wolf or lone sheep or whatever. And you would you would get victimized. Steven Payne What are some of the names of the street gangs from that period that you remember? STAFF 161 Okay. So you had major street gangs that were in that neighborhood during that period? Like the Savage Skulls? Steven Payne Sure. Sure. STAFF 161 The the Peacemakers Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 The Black Spades. Steven Payne Sure. Yeah. STAFF 161 The Bachelors. Steven Payne Yeah. The Bachelors, STAFF 161 the Turbans, the Javelins And the Ghetto Brothers had a clubhouse that was like, right around the corner, like I remember now. And on 61st Street intersected my street he Hewitt Place but 163rd Street, which was right around the corner off of Westchester Avenue. Steven Payne Yeah, STAFF 161 Right. There was a hill that went up off of Westchester Avenue 163rd Street, and up that on that right on that hill, well actually on 162nd Street. Steven Payne Sure STAFF 161 On 162nd and then you had the big hill was 163rd on 162nd Street. There was a clubhouse Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 For the Ghetto Brothers, Steven Payne Yeah, it's like a parking garage now, something like that. But yeah, STAFF 161 yeah. That was the clubhouse for the Ghetto Brothers. Now, what attracted me to the Ghetto Brothers. Other than the fact that they was right there in the neighborhood, and they would be seen frequently, right. was, um, they had like this this Latin rock band. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 And they would play open jams in the neighborhood, you know, regularly, especially up on the hill on 163rd Street up on the hill. They had a bodega that was there, Steven Payne sure. STAFF 161 And they would play in front of that bodega. But they had other locations along in that area where I would see them, you know, they would plug into the light poles for their amps and stuff. And just, you know, and play, you know, Latin rock music. And that really attracted me as far as that music playing. But you would hear for blocks over when they hooked up. Steven Payne I'm sure. STAFF 161 That was that was a big, that was a big. That was a big event. Steven Payne Yeah, STAFF 161 To see that happening? You know, and I, and I would go up there and check them out. So eventually I gravitated towards them. And I started going up there to the clubhouse, right. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 And when I got up there, one, one day I met on one of the older members, there. Not old, but he um Slick and he, I was talking to him he, any about? You know the music and, and, and the organization. And he invited me to come for a meeting that they were going to have. And when I went to the meeting a person who was there that had you know, very dramatic impact. On how I gravitated towards the Ghetto Brothers was Black Benjie. Steven Payne Absolutely. STAFF 161 Now Black Benjie was mostly the Ghetto Brothers were Hispanic. Steven Payne Sure, sure. STAFF 161 And Black Benjie was African American. And so and, and the first connection I made was a Hispanic guy named was Slick, right? And so they had like, what you call a youth division. Got to understand that Black Benjie was was an ex addict himself. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 And he was like, like, either a peer counselor or straight up drug counselor of some sort. And, um, he was also a member of the Ghetto Brothers as well. Now in the Ghetto Brothers, they they weren't like the, to me. They weren't like the the conventional, or a regular street gang in that neighborhood. Steven Payne Yeah, STAFF 161 Outlaw street gang. They, they kind of more or less, gave me the impression. They were more or less like the, like the Young Lords for the Black Panther Party in how they approached their organization. They were more they were more militant, and aware, aware of their circumstances and situations socially and politically. A lot of them wore like, like, you know, right. Steven Payne Some of them even wore, even started wearing berets. STAFF 161 Oh, yeah, they had the berets. Yeah, they had. Yeah, they wore those berets like, similar to what the Young Lords would wear. And they were into the politics of Puerto Rico. Steven Payne Sure, STAFF 161 yeah. And the liberation of Puerto Rico and such like that, which I didn't really understand. You know what that was all about, but their colors, alright. They had the center patch, and it had three garbage cans in the center patch. I didn't I didn't like them one of the things that that attracted me to the street gangs was the colors. Steven Payne Yeah, STAFF 161 And certain street gangs had nice colors. And what what it was was the imagery that was in the colors. And eventually because of my sketching and drawing abilities, I got into drawing different images of those street gang colors. Most of it of it being like with skulls, skulls and crossbones type things. Most of them had it like the Savage Nomads and the Savage Skulls. Steven Payne Yeah, STAFF 161 that was, you know, so I got into drawing skulls and, and bones and stuff like that. But um, Yeah, but the Ghetto Brothers had three garbage cans. And I was always like, why is it? But the thing is, is that their thing was assisting the Department of Sanitation, and cleaning out empty lots and stuff. Steven Payne Yeah, STAFF 161 for some reason, I don't know how they got into that. But that was a, I wouldn't say duties, but part of what they were volunteering to do. Steven Payne Sure, STAFF 161 Right, in that, in that part of the South Bronx, like cleaning out empty lots and stuff, along with the Department, because it was this effort to try to clear out some of these empty lots, which I think was almost futile, because it got so bad with the mattresses and old furniture, and abandoned cars, and lots, was just strewn with a lot of garbage and stuff. You know, and along with that, you had a lot of rats in and you had a lot of stray dogs in and to this day, I wonder where did all those stray dogs go? They had a lot you had, like packs of stray dogs that would roam the streets in the Bronx. Steven Payne Yeah, STAFF 161 Packs of them. Steven Payne Yeah, STAFF 161 You know, and, you know, they would like to, like move you off, off the off the sidewalk, you know, they would come through. Like, they wouldn't run or anything like that you had, they're coming down as a pack of dogs. And you either you're gonna move out the way or they gonna move you out the way. Steven Payne Yeah, STAFF 161 So I'm not these packs of dogs and that would roam the streets and cats along with the cats. And, and, and rats, a lot of rats from the empty lots and stuff like that. So it was very like, like, you know, this, disconcerting type of environment for me to come into, you know, that I just had to, you know, I had to get you know, accustomed to it. Kurt Boone So in junior high school like Queens, that's when I really saw the gangs so the gangs would come with the colors so they'd be in the same classroom with you. You were sitting in class and you know you got members wearing their colors in class, What was your junior high school, cuz I want to lead into the, to the high school and then we kind of get into the graffiti, but you're going into graffiti before kind of like high school. But so let's just talk cause in junior high school would experience I felt was quite interesting how in Queens it wasn't as rough as they way it was up in the Bronx. But you started at elementary school you're fighting fighting in the schoolyards and stuff. But when you're getting to junior high, it takes it's more aggressive. STAFF 161 Yeah, absolutely. Kurt Boone Right. And then you run into the gangs straight on? STAFF 161 Yeah. Okay, so yeah, that's true. But um, in in this, you had some gang members that were still in school. Steven Payne Yeah, STAFF 161 But a good majority of them had left school. Right, a good majority during that month, because see, they were so they were very, they were a little more. They couldn't blend in, like, you know, what, you could probably, you know, say up of the current gang situation. They couldn't blend it because of the outlaw appearance. Steven Payne Yeah, STAFF 161 You got to understand these district gangs of that period. They had the that look, they they wore denim cut off sleeve jackets, and with the very blatant colors on the on the back of denim jacket. Right? And numerous patches. And I'm talking about, you know, patches with skull and crossbones, swastikas, and, yeah, and other things that, you know, would be like, to most people offensive. MC boots, you know, the motorcycle boots, and big flop hats. They deliberately gave this appearance of dread or terror. Yeah. And, um, you know, and like, the Hispanic ones, you know, long hair or during that period in African American kids, huge Afros. Steven Payne Yeah, STAFF 161 You know, so they were very visual. So it wasn't, so I kind of more or less, you know, copied that in a lot of ways. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 So eventually, I became part of the Ghetto Brothers your younger, younger division of the Ghetto Brothers. Right. And under the tutelage of Slick and Black Benjie. So a very bad situation happened. Benjie was more diplomatic, you know, a type of person. A Very What do you call it? expressive, brother he was was able to, to relate and express himself because I don't know what his education was, but it appeared that he had some education. You know, he had he, you know, he knew how to, to converse, and to relate, and perhaps what he was doing with the counseling, brought that in hand, but he was the person that would counsel and organize. And but the main thing with him was the the peacemaking thing. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 Right. Which eventually led to his death. You know, then street gangs were very violent. And there was a lot of rivalries with the street gangs for territory and and what happened is that there was an account of or report of a disturbance with what's a few street gangs and Black Benjie showed up with a few younger Ghetto Brothers. Right. And to this day, I, you know, I'm saying to myself, because he will bring the younger ones when I don't, you know, he, some of the older Ghetto Brothers, you know, I, you know, you know, weren't his his his main focus, he would deal with a lot of the younger members of the, of the Ghetto Brothers. And so, that's what we would be seeing with, and today that this incident happened, he was with a few younger Ghetto Brothers, and I, and I, you know, to this day, you know, and that this, I could have been there at the situation when this thing happened. Right. But he confronted this conflict, with a few gangs, you know, Javelins and other gang members that were there. And 7 Immortals. Steven Payne Mortals for sure. STAFF 161 7 Immortals Steven Payne The Mongols, maybe were in the mix somewhere, STAFF 161 yeah, possibly, but the main was Javelins, 7 Immortals, and a few other gangs that was there. And he got there wile it was already set off the situation. Steven Payne Yeah, STAFF 161 you know, and immediately, he tried to interject into the situation. Now, I wasn't there, I didn't see it, actually, myself, but the report was, he tried to interject in the situation immediately, and to separate these his rival gangs members, and it turned on him and he was eventually killed at that location. So you know, that that led to a few things that I, I decided I was going to do and that was one that you know, come out of that environment of, or that situation of being, you know, gangbanger so to speak you know part of that, that gang street gang in scene there in that area. And also to like, more or less focusing on graffiti writing. At that point, I had acquired spray paint, right when I say spray paint, you know, you know the spray paint? Steven Payne Yeah (everyone laughs). STAFF 161 So spray paint, so this is where everything set off, right? Steven Payne Yeah, STAFF 161 right now. Now, here's the thing with this, right. This was really, this really got me right here. Right? When I say this really got me. There was a few stores. There was a few stores. Remember Prospect Avenue was this train station. Prospect Avenue. What's a train station that would get off the IRT 2 and 5 Steven Payne Yeah, STAFF 161 that the walk down to where I was living at. And by that point, right, I was, I was going to school or I had left. I left PS 130 and was going to junior high school. 52 52 right. One, one notable prior student that was 52 was Colin Powell. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 Colin Powell used to go to that school. Right. That was where Colin Powell was here, you know, yeah. So um, yeah. So PS 52. was a little more dramatic. You had mentioned that IS 52 They call it but through a junior high at that in between grade school and high school. Yeah. Eventually the high school would go to would be Theodore Roosevelt. or Junior High School 52 I noticed you got a little more dramatic. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 And, um, the practice it was like, you know, like these little um, handball courts and, and recreational areas that was around that school. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 Where Steven Payne Yeah, STAFF 161 specifically, like Savage Skulls and other main gangs would like, keep, you know, keep up residence right in that area. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 So it got a little more, you know, funkier, so to speak, right. You know, dealing with with, with junior high school with school, period, you know, when I got to Junior High School 52. My mother took me out of that school. Right, me and my brother and put us in a parochial school situation that was run by the church she was attending, right? Steven Payne Sure. STAFF 161 And that started me riding the trains and the bus. Steven Payne Oh, STAFF 161 right. Steven Payne Where was that high school located? STAFF 161 That was on Forest Avenue. Right. Not too far from from Morris High School. Steven Payne Okay. STAFF 161 Right down the street from Morris High School. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 Right. On Forest, R.T. Hudson, which was a a school that was run by the church. Right. Kurt Boone It was a Seventh Day Adventist. STAFF 161 it was a Seventh Day Adventist school that was run. Yeah. By that church. Yeah. Yeah. Steven Payne Okay, STAFF 161 which my mother was a member of that church, okay. And she felt that was, you know, the best environment to get us out of you know, getting in trouble because, you know, a few incidences did happen in 52 You know, fights and stuff that you know, that she was called in and and things happen and stuff. So she seen, you know, some signs and she said, The best thing is to try to pull me out of that school and put me into that particular parochial school that was run by this church. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 And I'm so dramatic thing now. Now all of a sudden I don't wear any uniform to school right and stuff. And but right next door to me was was Danny Danny was one of the the people the young kids of my age that was on the street, Danny and his sister, Bettina. Right. And they know we're close. friends or associates of my family. Right? Steven Payne Sure. STAFF 161 Because they've we went, you know, similar denomination of church. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 And now Danny, and Bettina is going to that parochial school RT Hudson, on Forest Avenue. That me and Adam is going to so we're traveling the same route every day, and attending the same school. So we got, you know, pretty, pretty tight. As far but here's the thing, right? On the street on Hewitt Place? Right? Something became apparent, right. Besides all the writings that were in the neighborhood, right, on the exterior of buildings and stuff, and other services in the, in that area, the public and in the interior of buildings, right. And specifically in school buildings to on the desks, And bathroom stalls and stuff like that. I got to meet some of the people who was putting the marks there. Steven Payne Ah, STAFF 161 and that was the most dramatic thing. And that's the thing that never ceases to amaze me. Or what what graffiti markings? Is that the mystique of seeing the mark continually in different places. And, and is the owner of the mark. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 And what the person is like, right then and and why are they making that mark? You know, and that was a very appealing thing for me to see. Kurt Boone What did the marks say at that time? Where they different marks the same name?. STAFF 161 Yeah well, okay. Well, okay, so I would see different marks, right. Mostly. It was like gang related stuff. Right gang related stuff, you know, um, you know, in street gangs you you have to have a street gang Yeah, right, you'd have your government name, your government name, it's the name, your birth name that was given to you at birth to your parents and on your birth certificate. But you wouldn't use that name. you wouldn't use that name and in the street gang,, so immediately in the street gang, I got a nickname, Corky C O R K Y. Yeah. And that was one of the first names I used to write along with my affiliation. Right? with the street gang? Yeah, Kurt Boone That was the Ghetto Brothers you were a Ghetto Brother right? STAFF 161 Yeah. Um, but before that also had Mr. Ed. Mr. Ed, I, I'm now in the Mr. Ed factor came in because of my name is Edward. Steven Payne Yeah, yeah. STAFF 161 And, and in the mid early, early to mid 60s, they had this TV sitcom. Yeah, Mr. Ed the Talking Horse. And, you know, it was like, more or less a comedy type thing. Because, you know, he's talking horse thing, you know. But, um, so I used to get, like, you know, teased about it in school. Right. You know, it's like, in school in school during that period, especially a kid that's not that they didn't know them. The kids the kids. If the kids didn't know you their whole life. They didn't know, you know, you from being born and raised up in there. And all of a sudden, here's this like, 10 year old 11 year old kid, right? In the neighborhood. Right. Right. If you if you didn't make a name for yourself, or give them a name? Yeah. Right. They would give you a name. Yeah. Okay, or you n image right and usually it'll be something that you wouldn't like, it wouldn't be flattering. Yeah, it wouldn't be flattering. You said, because most of the time, they didn't want to give you they didn't want want to refer to you. As your birth name. Steven Payne Sure. Yeah. STAFF 161 All right. Edward wasn't an appealing thing. to call somebody to them. Right. So or they would make mockery of it. So, you know, Mr. Ed the talking Horse thing came in? Right. As you know, basically they call we call we call you know, snapping. Snapping. Snapping is being in school. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 Snapping is being in school. And you being made mockery of in the classroom. Right. So your only defense, right for that is, is to be able to snap back but harder, you know, what I'm saying? And embarrass people. And you know, what, see that just led to a whole bunch of fights. Steven Payne Yeah. Yeah, for sure. STAFF 161 Yeah. In class out of class continuously, right? Because that was your only defense because you in class, and you continually being ridiculed and mocked and snapped on. Right. So you got to come back, you know, hard hardcore, like with your snaps. And so I got good at that. But the only thing with that is that it led to a lot of fights. A lot of fights. So, you know, so I kind of, you know, became diplomatic with it with the whole Mr. Ed thing. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 I just adopted it. I started drawing. Right. And I and I kind of related to the theme the whole Mr. Ed with, you know, with the horse and everything I started drawing horses. Right. And cowboy type of themes. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 Right. The cowboy riding the horse. The the cowboy hat. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 The stars. Right. Okay. You know, Deputy badge star, right. And I started throwing that around on the desk. And in the restrooms and stuff like that. Kurt Boone Oh Okay. and you wasn't moving on it wasn't on paper at that time? STAFF 161 And Stuff like that. That's what I'm saying. I'm leaving. Yeah, I'm leaving, like the desks now. Right. Yeah. And now I'm starting to put it actually on walls. Kurt Boone Yeah. STAFF 161 Mainly around the school and stuff like that. So that's my first, you know, really would say tagging experience. Steven Payne Sure, STAFF 161 like grade school like it's PS. 130 Still, Steven Payne yeah. STAFF 161 So like, by (IS) 52 it became a little more dramatic now by 52. Right now, um, the whole thing with spray paint came in. Now, Steven Payne okay, STAFF 161 now the day would spray paint. Right now you understand that spray paint was something that wasn't it wasn't made, you know, Kurt Boone It wasn't made for art. STAFF 161 It wasn't made for writing or drawing with. Kurt Boone Yeah, STAFF 161 spray paint was made basically as a utility type tool industrial use thing. Right, you know, to do you know, no utility and industrial work with, right? Yeah. Um, I would first my first account with it right, I can remember would be that we needed spray paint to cover the identity of a stolen bike. Yeah, if the bike costs, yes, so. Yeah. So, basically, at this point, yeah. So here's what's happening right? At this point, we got this this. This block crew as Topaz liked to call it block crew. And on the block crew, you know, it's like, you know, you know, you had a couple of like, marauding kids in the block crew, including myself. You know, would go around. And we shoplift stuff. shoplifting became a major thing. And stealing bikes? Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 From other neighborhoods. So what happened is that we realized that the book, you can't keep riding that bike around, if it's stolen. And if it's being looked for by by the cops. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 So we got to change up the appearance of the above the bike. And so up on Prospect Avenue. We had Woolworth and John's Bargain Store. And both of them had had like, supplied spray paint. Right? And so we acquired some spray paint and spray painted the bike, right? Kurt Boone Did you rack it or bought it?, STAFF 161 No well. No, actually everything. There was no money involved. We have no money. There was no yeah. There was absolutely no money. So, so so so so shoplifting became a thing for everything, you know, for eating for clothing yourself. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 And for acquiring anything. Steven Payne Yeah, STAFF 161 there was no money at all you can get right. Later on, you know, as far as hustling thing, like, he would have stuff like packing bags at the, at the a&p That was on Westchester Ave or, you know, or doing some little chore for somebody, you know, carrying bags for somebody back to, you know, from the supermarket or something like that. But in general, there was no money to be had. Right? So, shoplifting became a major factor. Right? In just having stuff and getting things. So that's the first, you know, experience with like, spray paint. And then you had, like, you know, really, there was some spray paint that was in the basement of the superintendent, where the superintendent of the building had some spray paint down in the basement for some reason. Yeah. And we got that spray paint with access to the basement, he had this whole maze of basements, and apartments down in the lower part of the tenement, and in his backyard is huge backyard, whole maze in the backyard. And, and of the tenements and, and the lower part, our basement you had these basement apartments with a boiler rooms in the basement with the boiler and the cold room, and all this was and those those after a lot of the superintendents ceased to keep maintenance in the building or they were no longer you know, taking care of the building those basement apartments where the boilers and stuff like that was became like, like shooting dens for the heroin addicts. Steven Payne Sure, sure. Sure. STAFF 161 So that was either in the basement, or it was up on the roof. Yeah, yeah. And so the apartment that I lived in with my mother and my younger brothers and sisters was on the top floor, just before we hit the roof. So there was continually junkies up on that roof landing. shooting heroin was a terrifying scene. Steven Payne Yeah, STAFF 161 right. So between the junkie shooting heroin in the street gangs, right, that you You know, you was always had to be on the lookout for always on, you know, on, you was always on the target side of them. Right. It was pretty dreadful environment. Kurt Boone So two questions for you. See you getting your spray paint. What age kind of like where you like cause Junior High is like 11, 12 years old? STAFF 161 Yeah. So that around that time was the spray paint? Yeah, yeah. Kurt Boone You being 11 or 12 years old? It's pretty dramatic to see all that how did how did you take that in? STAFF 161 I'm already in the environment, and I see what it is right. I know it's not it's not Staten Island no more. Right. And, you know, this is where I have to be. So I have to make my niche. Right. Right now. I'm now the first thing was, is knowing how to defend yourself? Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 Right. So, um, so me and my brother, seeing that we were in a situation together and we were the oldest of our siblings. So it's the responsibility to me to me the responsibility was that I had younger brothers and sisters. Right? That, you know, I had to defend. And I noticed that that that larger families like mine of kids, right, that the older brothers were the ones that will come to the defense of the younger brothers and sisters. Or you had to make a reputation for yourself that don't mess with his him or his brothers and sisters. because so and so will get you. Steven Payne Yeah, yeah. STAFF 161 So and I had to be what your fighting game or whatever, or whatever, you know, or, you know, or the get knocked in the head with a stick game or I'll stick you with a with a K55 or 007 game? Steven Payne Yeah, yeah. STAFF 161 Yeah. So it was with that. So, me, me, me and AJ was like, our jumping game. Right? Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 Now, when I say jumping game, you know, I would like say, Yo, listen, you see that? They down on the corner right there. Right. So when we get down there? You know, I'm saying I'll give you the cue. And that dude that one particular dude we got to jump on him. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 All right. And we're gonna whip him out. And so and then the rest of them will know that we gonna do that. Now. No. So so that started happening. Now AJ became more of a fighter than me. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 Right. My thing was, I'll hit you in the head with a stick. Yeah, that was my thing. I'll hit you the head with a stick. Steven Payne Yeah. Kurt Boone That was your brother right?> STAFF 161 Right. So but AJ will fight you. Right? Kurt Boone And that's your brother? STAFF 161 Yeah, yeah. The younger brother. Yeah. Adam, So he'll hit you in the head with a stick so. So the AJ thing was eventually would become his tag. And my tag would be Mr. Ed 161. And Staff 161 Eventually, right. Yeah. So that came eventually. But that's what I'm referring to as AJ his tag. Alright, right. So yeah, so that thing became a dramatic experience dealing with that part, hostile part of the Bronx. So spray paint came in into play. So up on Prospect Avenue, we had Woolworth and you had John's Bargain Store. John's Bargain store had had had wet-look Paint, wet-look paint. Right, which I thought was very interesting. It's supposed to give you the shine wet look type of appearance. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 So the spray paint came into play. Now the church building that was across the street. That became basically my, my first public canvas. Steven Payne Sure, sure. Sure. STAFF 161 Yeah. Now. Okay, so on that street with spray paint for the first time. I actually drew something. Right. And that was early 1970. I was around. Yeah. Early 1970. I drew something with spray paint. And that was a skull and crossbones. What with a crown Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 Right. And there's the bones of the skull and crossbones were dripping. So I drew the drip. So I actually drew that on there. And that was a very dramatic thing. But the thing is, is that that brought a conflict too, because this the Savage Skulls, their colors Steven Payne yeah STAFF 161 was a skull, not a skull and crossbones. but a skull with this here Nazi helmet on. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 And I never forget that. One of the major members of the Savage Skulls, which that baby Skulls its not Hippie, Steven Payne oh, Hippie. Okay. STAFF 161 Right. Steven Payne Yeah, STAFF 161 he comes to the neighborhood. Right. And he sees that skull and crossbones that I wrote. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 Or drew on the on the side of that wall, that wall. Right. And he's staring at it and starts kicking in, and stuff like that. And, you know, and now so that what about that street conflict? Now, at that time? Kurt Boone Did he know you drew it? STAFF 161 He didn't know who he didn't know who drew it. Now. Now, this is just prior. This is just prior to me establishing what I will refer to as a graffiti crew or graffiti club. Steven Payne Sure, sure. Sure. STAFF 161 Now, I mentioned that there was like, at least a few people that I had became aware of, on that street on the on that particular street that were were gang members, street gang members of different street gangs. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 And, but they were all that I knew. And I know, you no, um interacted with either, you know, playing stickball or a basketball and on our makeshift court, or Johnny on the Pony, ringolevio, skelzies, or whatever. Yeah, or just like, um, he would go on these like exploration. Because adventures because the whole that whole environment, there was rooftops, basements, and stuff that, you know, we would explore. So I had started to, you know, make my niche into the, the youth crew, or the peers of my age that were in that community. So, like, so it was a few people. So it was Danny that was next door. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 Right. And there was Dope. And there was a Paul. And there was Kenny, and Cookie. And Jojo. And Skeeter, and such like that, now some of these some of these guys, right. Some of these guys were like, at least two of them. Were part of the of that whole affiliation with the Ghetto Brothers with me. Steven Payne Okay, okay. STAFF 161 There was a younger division of the Ghetto Brothers, like they had the Baby Skulls. They had younger division of the Ghetto Brothers, that Slick and Black Benjie would like more or less counsel and supervise? Steven Payne Sure, sure. STAFF 161 So that's what I was a part of. And along with a few other people on my street, so that became apparent, like more dominant, because the other people that will have that would belong to other gangs like the Savage Skulls, and the Black Spades. Doug was a Black Spade. Super Slick was or Paul. Getting you know a little ahead of him. Yeah. That was his tag, so Paul, was was part of the Savage Skulls. Steven Payne Okay, STAFF 161 yeah, I found that kind of like, you know, dis dis concerning that, you know, all these rival gangs on the same block and these guys I'm associating with, but you got to understand that the whole nature of street gangs is that if you in the community, and you're not like, associated with something that's dominating on the street level like that, in some ways, and you like traveling in different places, you left very vulnerable. Steven Payne Yeah, STAFF 161 so a lot. I understood that a lot of kids, right young youth become affiliated with those things for like a support base that they usually, or ordinarily you don't get they ordinarily don't get like either from their, their, their home, or some other community based situation, right. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 street gang can be very supportive. Right for like family things for defense. And for essentials, food, clothing, sometimes even shelter. You know, you know, companionship, you know. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 And, and so I got to understand that was a major thing. And again, like I said, the Ghetto Brothers was very appealing because they were more or less like interactive socially in and as far as we want to help the community type thing. Steven Payne Sure. STAFF 161 You know, they had social issues that they were backing. Steven Payne Yeah, yeah, STAFF 161 that that I kind of like and then the whole thing was a music band. Right, that they were playing, you know, for free in the community and stuff like that. Alright, but again, like I said, I tended the after Black Benjie, you know, being killed, I tended to, like, grav, gravitate away from that, and more or less towards, like, more graffiti writing? Steven Payne Yeah, STAFF 161 so this is on the street. This is solely on the street now. Steven Payne Sure, STAFF 161 but it it slowly gravitated to the mass transit system. Cause of, myself, my younger brother, Danny. And his sister Bettina riding the buses and the train to get to the private school. And so more time on the, on the trains and the buses, and being on the interior of the buses and the trains. Right. gave us the opportunity. For the to write on the interior of the trains and the buses. So the marker thing, yeah, you had markers because, you know, of school and stuff like that. But um, that's I started getting my first interior tags, specifically on Third Avenue El. Okay. And the 2 and the 5. And I can't recall the number of the bus but the bus that went up Prospect Avenue. Right, that stopped right on the corner of Westchester and Prospect, and headed, you know, uptown towards Boston Row. Steven Payne Sure. STAFF 161 Right. That bus I would take, as well as the 2 and the 5 to Third Avenue, and switch to get the Third Avenue El. to the station where I would get off to go to RT Hudson. And that ride right along along with our neighbor, Danny. We started getting our first tags. on the Third Avenue El You know, that's a defunct line now. Kurt Boone You was writing Corky and Mr. Ed? STAFF 161 I would write Corky Mr. Ed. And then eventually I got Staff Staff S T A F F. Kurt Boone And this is like right around you was like 14, 13, coming out of junior high going into high? STAFF 161 Yeah. I'm still like, like, like, like, 12 years old when I first go into RT Hudson. Kurt Boone Oh, STAFF 161 yeah. And then, you know, like, by 13. You know, I just like that we fully organized as far as graffiti on. Like I said, on that street, you had a few people. Right, that I started to realize they were the author's Kurt Boone Oh, STAFF 161 Of the tags, yeah. Again, it's that's the whole thing, the nature of tagging, you see the tag first. And you get familiar with the tag? Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 And it brings the question mark, who, when and how, right. And that is a very interesting factor. In the whole graffiti tagging scene is to see the tag first. And become familiar with the tag, and to to long to meet the author of the tag, so I started meeting the author of the tags on my block. So that I put that together. As far as commonality besides being, you know, on on the same block around the same age, you know, the adverse of that is that How come you belong to this gang and you belong to that gang and I belong to this gang, and so forth we on the same block. But we still supposed to be like, Hewitt Place boys? Steven Payne Yes. Kurt Boone Okay. Steven Payne Yeah, STAFF 161 right. Yeah. All right. We got to get something a little more in common. And that was like the graffiti tagging. Steven Payne Sure, STAFF 161 right. And since by that point, Like, I was starting to draw things with the can. Steven Payne Yeah, STAFF 161 right. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 I didn't, I didn't make nothing of it at that point. Right. But that wasn't being done. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 As far as if it was being done, it was being done. Right. And that kind of more or less led me to draw the skull and crossbones, and with the crown, it was it is being done by gang members. Steven Payne Sure. STAFF 161 But they would draw, you know, like, crude murals of they gang colors. Steven Payne Yeah, STAFF 161 At the handball courts, or something in their area. So that's what kind of more or less attracted me and said oh look at that, you know, either it was the gang colors themselves, or, like, the gang would like find a handball court or wall near their turf area, and draw their colors. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 Right. And so I kind of more or less, you know, got into drawing with the can because of that. Steven Payne Okay. Yeah, sure. Kurt Boone Your inspiration. So, um, so you you mentioned a step deal you know, the 1970s, and thought about developing this club? Did you? Did you already knew that it was an ex Vandal crew already? STAFF 161 Okay. Yeah. So I'm riding the trains, right, at that point, going back and forth to school now, I'm doing more commuting. Now. I'm not like, you know, going to school right there in the neighborhood, I'm leaving out the neighborhood, specifically to go to school and traveling on buses and trains. Right? I start to see tags in the interior of the trains. Steven Payne Sure, STAFF 161 interior of the trains, right. And these are basically, you know, wouldn't be like these, like, you know, heavy duty Marker was like the Pilots, it'd be like, like, you know, like, little dry markers, and other smaller tip felt tip markers. And I started to see the tags after a while. And so, I made the affiliation, right, based on what I seen and knew about street gangs and the tags and marking turf, that the tags were from people that was in the general neighborhood. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 Right. For instance, Lee 163. I knew that the number referred to the area where the tagger was from Steven Payne Yeah, STAFF 161 right. Steven Payne Yeah, STAFF 161 I kind of made that out. So I'm saying so Lee, and Lee with a very prevalent tagger. And Sweet Duke 161. El Marko 174. Steven Payne Okay. STAFF 161 And Bug 170. Steven Payne Yeah, STAFF 161 you know, I'm starting to see these tags, you know, Kurt Boone and that's on the interior before the outside? you would see the interior of STAFF 161 the interior, mainly the interior of the train. Yeah. And this is like, like felt tip. Tags. there wasn't, there wasn't, um, you would very rarely see something marked on the outside or surface of a subway car. Steven Payne Yeah, STAFF 161 right. This is a 69, 70. You would very rarely see something marked on the outside of a car. you would see a lot of tags and stuff on the street. Right, depending on the area you was in occasionally you'd see something marked in a subway station. Steven Payne Yeah, STAFF 161 right. But not a saturation of tags on the exterior of trains. Steven Payne Sure. Kurt Boone Most of the walls were prevalent too, like you were growing up and you would see STAFF 161 in the neighborhood. Yeah. Kurt Boone On your neighborhood on the buildings on the side of your buildings. STAFF 161 Especially in South Bronx neighborhood. Yeah. Yeah. And again, you know, a lot of people, you know, the gangs, they marked they turf, Steven Payne yeah. STAFF 161 Right. And then you had a lot of political graffiti and stuff like that. And it just came became a cultural thing. Right, that if you lived in a neighborhood, you got to sign it. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 I just, it its just that's the appearance that I got from that. And I could and was all on, you know, so. So, um, so And of course, you know, the, the more historical people like Joe 182 and Taki 183 Steven Payne Sure, STAFF 161 They started to notice them. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 And of course, those those taggers, or writers are not in the general area. They're like more like Washington Heights. Steven Payne Sure. So yeah, STAFF 161 the way I became familiar with them is basically riding the subway. Steven Payne Yeah, STAFF 161 because they weren't, they didn't have tags in my neighborhood. Joe 182. And Taki 183. So now I'm I'm getting to realize that the mass transit system would carry your tag around the city. Right? And it's a good way for your tag or your graffiti name, right or handle will become known outside of your community. Steven Payne Yeah, yeah. STAFF 161 Right because the whole thing was mainly to impress people within your community, with graffiti now I also realized this in retrospect with the whole thing. All the logic and in writing, vandalizing defacement defacing your community around you. If you know, for use of a better explanation description or or term for. It has legitimate it it has legitimate meaning to it. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 Right. As asinine as it may seem. It gives the individual that doesn't have that identity or that voice, an identity and a voice. Steven Payne Sure. STAFF 161 A lot of people in that community of the South Bronx appeared to be ostracized, and disenfranchised. And in a big metropolis like New York City, right. Where it's, it seemed like everything was based on celebrity, and notoriety and flash and glam. And, you know, and and who you are in the city. How you place? How are you placed in the city? What do you mean, in this big place? New York, New York? The tagging thing kind of more or less gave you that, your props. Steven Payne Yeah, yeah, STAFF 161 The tagging thing gave you your props. Because especially if a lot of people gave your props because alright one of the more prevalent tags that I saw. Right. And I got, I was gravitating to. After you know a while I started to see him was Stay High 149. Right. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 And the reason that I kind of more or less gravitated towards his tag is because his tag incorporated a lot of things that I really liked about tagging, or writing it incorporated drawing. He was drawing. Right. Steven Payne Yeah, yeah. STAFF 161 Sweet Duke was nothing he was drawing Sweet Duke tag Incorporated. a Playboy bunny. He drew a Playboy Bunny's head. And he had on gloves and a martini glass. He would draw with his tag in the interior. Right? Stay High's tag included. The smoker character, the stick figure. Right? And with the halo, and everything from the the 60s sitcom The Saint. El Marko. drew the, the hat character you know, from the El Marko pen felt tip pen. It had this logo with this you know hat character with two eyes, right. Which I eventually adopted myself. So I kind of took from them. Steven Payne Yeah, STAFF 161 that thing you know. Kurt Boone Okay, so Taki 183 New York Times article came out in 1971. So when in that period? STAFF 161 Yeah, I wasn't I wasn't that's the signature era. See, that's the thing. Okay, it Taki 183 Joe 182. These guys are what you refer to as the earliest of the signature era. Right? Kurt Boone This is around the time you're writing too right. STAFF 161 Yeah, yeah. Eddie, Eddie 181 Eddie 181. That's another one that and the only reason Eddie 181 kind of stood out for me was because he had my name Eddie. Steven Payne Yeah, STAFF 161 you know. And I said, you know, so Wow. There's somebody that has my name that's tagging. Right? But he had a plain tag. Kurt Boone Oh, STAFF 161 right. He got to plain tag. Right? I'm Kool Kevin One. And Kool Kevin One. And Kool Herc. right now. Now. Their tags were pretty dramatic, too, in the sense that they were drawings. Steven Payne Okay, STAFF 161 Kool Herc drew a face with his tag, a very crude face. And Kool Kevin. He spelled it K O O L for Kool. With the O's he made eyes out of the O's with eyebrows. Right? Yeah. And, you know, and Incorporated arrows and stuff, you know, along with the tag, so the thing with Taki and Joe 182 in the earliest of the taggers. They weren't into the style of the tag, they were just writing a very, you know, brief rendering, of um print. Steven Payne Sure, sure. STAFF 161 Right. Their signature was very simplistic. Kurt Boone Yeah, STAFF 161 very simplistic. With just the name. And the number. Referring to the area that they came from the real attraction to me, I more or less came in, I more or less came in into the stylistic era of of tagging, tagging, not not piecing the signature, they had a they had the regular signature era was very simple. tags. And then it had the stylistic signature era. When you had people like El Marko 174 and Sweet Duke. And, and Phase Two, and Stay High One. Now the tags are starting to look a little more dramatic. Bug 170 and Lee 160 That's a stylistic era of signature tags. Kurt Boone And what year was was that? STAFF 161 that that that is that's that's still that's still early 70s. Early that's like, like 70, 71. Right? into 72. And even you can say, like, even like 69 Steven Payne Yeah, STAFF 161 because Stay High was was tagging in 69. To a certain degree. I saw some of his tags. Steven Payne Yeah. Kurt Boone Was he from the Bronx or did you know where he was from? STAFF 161 He was yeah, he lived in the Bronx. Yeah, yeah. on 149th Street. And then he went eventually moved to Harlem. Yeah. When were the the Broadway train line is yard is is? Yeah. But he was he was he was initially in the Bronx. But, um, yeah, so that's another factor. A lot of Bronx people. A lot of Bronx people, you gotta understand that IRT, number 1, number 2 and number 5 train run from the Bronx into the into Manhattan and clear into Brooklyn and back. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 So, um, you got a large three borough area where you would see taggers people who are writing graffiti. Right. Would would have access to those trains? The 2 and a 5 in in in the Bronx and Manhattan and in Brooklyn. Right, you would, you would know that, that and you would see that? Well, you wouldn't know exactly. Sometimes off the top, especially with like the Brooklyn guys. Steven Payne Sure. STAFF 161 A lot of the Brooklyn guys didn't write the numbers. So you wouldn't know exactly off the top where they was from. Right, like Spin. Right. and you wouldn't know that. He was from Brooklyn at first. Steven Payne Yeah, STAFF 161 right. But eventually, a system came about later with more or less you could find that out. that they was from Brooklyn or Flint. Right? Right. Or, you know, people like that. Right? You had, Flint 707 and Flint For Those That Dare right. Um, you wouldn't know that they was cause the Brooklyn guys, they know, maybe it's how the streets are organized, they didn't have a number system, or they weren't really prevalent with adding a number to they tag as the people who were from the Bronx. And and Manhattan. Right. Steven Payne Sure. STAFF 161 And you had the most prevalent tagging. To be honest, right? Um, initially wasn't the Bronx, it was like, with like, the Broadway lines. Steven Payne Sure. STAFF 161 The 2 not the 2 but the 1 and 3, Steven Payne The 1 and the 3 okay. STAFF 161 Right. Where Taki 183 and Joe 182. And those original guys were from Kurt Boone SJK SJK was number one and Mike, STAFF 161 yeah, yeah, that's it. You know, you had those. You had those people from what they refer to. WC 188. Kurt Boone Yeah, yeah. STAFF 161 So Writer's Corner. 188. Right. Those those people, those people were like, the most prevalent taggers of the signature era to tell you the honest Truth. Steven Payne Sure. STAFF 161 Right. And then the Bronx was a close, a close, close second. Right. Kurt Boone So Writers Corner 188 it's Washington Heights. It's not STAFF 161 It's Washington Heights yeah And that's where you had those people Kurt Boone Less than a mile away right. Yeah, that's STAFF 161 what you had. And that's what kind of got me what the 161 thing? Because I, you know, I adopted the 161 because I said 161st Street, intersected, um, Hewitt Place Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 So I had to, you know, represent, you know, my hood, that's what it was all about. So, I had to add the 161. And then I acquired Staff. Kurt Boone Alright so please, right here that was my next question. When did you start writing Staff? STAFF 161 So, okay, so, so Staff, Staff came, came about, like, like, the early part of 70, when I um. in the culture of the street gang culture, and in the culture of the day, you had these walking sticks, not what not doing like this, but you had the ones that they would make you guys who walk around with golf clubs. Kurt Boone Whoa, STAFF 161 With golf clubs, right. And, you know, you know, a 9-iron, you know a golf club, and as a weapon and as a as a cool thing, you know, a walking stick right, and then you had guys that would make their own right, you know, you know, get a piece of a tree limb and cut out your own walking stick, and shellac it and hook it up. You know what I'm saying it was part of the um, the whole thing the whole scene with the maybe the Afro central centric Look with the dashiki and the big afro. Kurt Boone Yeah, STAFF 161 And you had the walking cane? Yeah. And I thought that was a cool thing. So I attempted, I attempted to make my own walking stick. Right. Right. And, um, and I probably got a little more exaggerated with it did, then I should have, which I did. And that's because of, I was I was, I was influenced by popular culture a lot. What I saw on TV, one of the main things all the luxuries that my mother was able to afford us was that TV. Steven Payne Sure STAFF 161 that big furniture TV that was in the house with the with the big antenna on top, you know what I'm saying? And I got a lot of stuff from the TV. And one of the things like the movies that I I saw was Charlton Heston. And he's the greatest story ever told on the 10 Commandments. Steven Payne Sure. STAFF 161 And he played the part of Moses. And to me, I like superheroes in general. Yeah, yeah. I like superheroes in general. Right. But he seemed like, you know, the more dramatic, realistic superhero because he was just like a regular like guy that was leading people but he had this this staff and the staff was this superhero weapon. Right. He was fighting this whole big kingdom headed by Pharaoh in Egypt, right. With his staff? Kurt Boone Yeah, STAFF 161 right and leading the people and He would like use that staff to open up rivers and oceans and, and bring water out of a rock. And you know, he would it would be his weapon. So when I seen the mostly the old yeah, mostly the older dudes in the community like were making these walking sticks. And so I tried to, you know, get one I believe it was Crotona Park or one of the Parks yeah Crotona Park, I got a tree limb a tree limb I got, and try to carve out, you know, my knife, pen knife, the tree limb, but the stick was too big. I didn't cut it down, like, you know, so basically, I'm holding all the walking stick. And it's like that it's a little bigger. Yeah. And you know, you know, you it's it seconded as a weapon too Steven Payne Sure, STAFF 161 With those those golf clubs and them walking sticks that guys were walking around with they basically were weapons too. You know? So, basically, I left it like that. Right? And so people was like, like, like, mocking me with it. Like, hey what's that your staff? Yeah. So that was the whole thing that and I started to hear that I always I already was kind of more or less focused on that I wanted to get them um a tag that rivaled what was. I would see the tags I started to see on the train right the Bug 170, Lee 163 and Stay High 149. And then of course, one of my other taggers I admired was Super Cool 223. Steven Payne Okay, STAFF 161 right. So I had, I wanted to get a tag that was very dramatic, like that, one of those tags. So, and, of course, nobody else had, and that was Staff. Because they they started Hey, that's your Staff, hey Staff. You know what I'm saying that were starting to mock be with that. So it's stuck the same thing with Mr. Ed. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 Right. It's the whole thing, the whole thing with acquiring a tag, is that you gotta understand again, everything is is time specific, you know, and just being that Historical Society, history has a lot to say, on for human behavior, and why things are the way they are? And where things came from. And so in history was always one of my life, subjects cause I like to know what happened before. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 And why is it this way now? You know, and so, um, yeah. So the, the era of that time with the civil rights movement, and the black pow Power Movement was like, there was this focus with, um, it was Martin Luther King. And it was Malcolm X. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 And they appeared to have different agendas. But it's really the same, but it's approaching it different ways. Steven Payne Sure. STAFF 161 Right. And remember, I said the Black Panther Party was right there in the neighborhood. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 Right. And when I was in Staten Island Now, going back to Staten Island, good, good. The foster, the parents that I lived with, were born into the Baptist Church. Kurt Boone Sure, sure. STAFF 161 And the Baptist Church is where Martin Luther King was Kurt Boone a pastor. Yeah, STAFF 161 yeah. He, that's what he came through in leadership in that church. And so that church in Staten Island was used as an organizing base Steven Payne Sure, STAFF 161 for some of his marches. And I actually me and my brother actually participated in a few marches in Staten Island as little kids. Yeah. What Yeah, so Martin Luther King, Malcolm X. Now, the thing was, so I had that experience marching, you know, "we shall overcome" with Martin Luther King Movement. Now, the Malcolm X perspective as far as approach to, you know, civil rights and black nationalism. Right. And, and justice, you know, and Respect, human rights, right. Steven Payne Sure STAFF 161 was a different approach. And he would say things like that kind of really dawned on me. Is that Oh! You know, we don't even know our original names. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 We don't know you have the name that you have. Right was given to you. And you don't even know that that name is is the name of your oppressor. And, and you know, you don't even have your name. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 So that was another factor why I wanted to get a name. Right? Kurt Boone Yeah, STAFF 161 Or an identity and a lot of taggers don't realize that during that period, everything is time specific. It just didn't just happen just because you know how to the blues, the blue sky, there was things political things, social things happening during that period where people youth, I look at the whole thing as a youth movement. Steven Payne Yeah, STAFF 161 because, I believe there was a crossroads at that point. Not so much for the adult black and brown people of the era, but for the youth, because the youth had to get their their grip on where they're gonna go in society. So and that brings the whole question of hip hop culture. Kurt Boone Yeah, STAFF 161 yeah, so I was saying, um, the thing with like, hip hop culture, as they call it now, hip hop culture. Steven Payne Yeah, STAFF 161 right. Now, just like I, I mentioned, that, on the street, in that community, where I was there there was prevalent markings, markings what we referred to as graffiti, that means basically, markings and sketchings, of, you know, things that's in the public form, that was this part of the community, it was part of what I perceived the culture of that community, to basically mark your turf, make your presence known by putting your your mark in the community, either in the exterior or interior of that community. Right, it was just there, right? They didn't just like oh some single person decided, you had people that were prevalent in it, I, you know, but in that community, where I came up in, in late 60s, and early 70s, it was a prevalent thing that was this, you know, saturating the community Steven Payne sure. STAFF 161 The other thing, right, that was there, at the same time, in the community in the public was, was what they refer to as emceeing and DJing. Steven Payne Yeah, STAFF 161 right. People would play their music, like they people would, you know, just put speakers in the windows and stuff like that, sure. And play music and now, you know, and that's another thing that kind of was, was very, like, you know, you know, new to me you know coming from Staten. It's people playing music loud in the street, as if, you know, they are, you know, performing or doing that task. Steven Payne Yeah, STAFF 161 you know, as a duty, but the emceeing and DJing thing with the label that, you know, DJing is playing records. And of course, the emceeing is master of ceremony, someone hosting the playing of the records. Steven Payne Sure. STAFF 161 Alright. that I knew was something that was on the street, especially in the early 70s. And what people referred to as breakdancing. I knew that as a gang-bands, gangs would get together, and they would, you know, do this celebratory type of, you know, thing festive thing. And it would be this wild dancing, right? For a better word wild right where they would get out on the ground and spin and flip and stuff like that. You know, Steven Payne I heard some of the Black Spades talk about the dances they used to do to "Soul Power," but they would change at the Spade Power. And they had this whole dance routine. STAFF 161 Yeah. Yeah, when they got together, and sometimes when maybe a little intoxication or something like the dance routines would get a little wild they would get on the ground. And so I seen that I seen that, right. And again, I'm referring to this this whole social revolution for the Youth for Youth. Right. As far as the arts. Steven Payne Yeah, STAFF 161 right. I'm drawing right? The vocal arts and the music arts and the dance arts. Right. All right. And remember, there was a deficit in the end, because the schools had stopped, you know, hosting music and art classes. So. And then I believe there was a disconnection between the old school or older generation of those communities. And what the new generation or the younger youth of that time wanted to be represented as Steven Payne Yeah, yeah. STAFF 161 right. And like I said, one of the things was, you know, I want my own name, I want my own identity. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 Right. I understand ma, that you gave me, Edward. Right. And I appreciate Edward, I understand what it means lord of riches and everything. But culturally, that's really not, you know, where my ancestors came from? Steven Payne Yeah, STAFF 161 that's, I understand that I understand lord of riches. I like it. Beautiful. Right? But, I'm not saying that. But you know, so consciously, that's what through my actions, so I appreciate the name. But I like to get my own name. And so Staff, because even Mr. Ed basically was given to me, and Corky was given to me by a street gang. And Mr. Ed was something that I got from the kids in school. That was mocking me with it, because, you know, my name is Edward. Right. But Staff is basically something that I feel that I took on for myself. Steven Payne Yeah, STAFF 161 so aligning with that whole philosophy of Malcolm X, that we don't know, our original names and our identity, he took X. Right? Because he didn't know his last name. Right. And so alright, from his cultural ancestry, right. And so, I took Staff, and I, you know, I gave it an acronym a meaning to it, because all names should have a meaning. Now, commonly be all What did you get Staff from? You know, a staff is a group of people or something like that. Right? Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 Right. And yes, that's the definition and that you might find in Webster Dictionary, or, or it's, it's the apparatus where, you know, or the diagram where you put musical notes on, you know, to might music on Yes, yeah. And that's another definition. Right. You know but, you know, eventually I got I made it an acronym. Right. Seek Truth Always, Faithfully Forever. Steven Payne Okay. STAFF 161 So that's, you know, so I made it I gave it its own meaning with separate wording. Right. So, again, taking on that identity, I believe the youth wanted to take on their own identity, the early writers, right. And be known as who they want it to be known as. And also with expressions self expression, with the dance and and with the music and how they listen to the music. Steven Payne Yeah, STAFF 161 right. And so you know, you know, like in 73 that Kool Herc broke off from tagging He was an active tagging right. tagged with me and my brother and we on the same got pictures with me him and and AJ on my brother on the same trains. I saw him regularly at the meeting location for writers which he didn't come to the writers bench that often but I would see him like, around Clinton High School. Steven Payne Okay, STAFF 161 at the right on the corner in the square there. Where the bagel shop was there was a meeting place like a little writer's corner or writer's bench meeting location. For writers, so I would see see him there, Kool Herc. But he broke off early. Right? Just like some of the early signature era people like Taki 183 and Joe 182 and such like that, right? Junior 161 and El Marko 174 and Bug 170 and Lee 163. Right. That that generation that era of taggers signature early signature era taggers were kind of faded away And the more stylistic writers kind of more or less came to the front, I say stylistic writers, right? Still signature era, this same signature, but the signature the calligraphy of the writing became a lot more aesthetic. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 And dramatized, like I said, drawing. So, so drawing became a big factor with me early on, or the whole whole graff writing scene. Steven Payne Sure. STAFF 161 All right. Not so much that I wanted to be an artist, but more so that I realize it brought more attention to the tag. Steven Payne Yeah, yeah. STAFF 161 I mean, to me, it just like, Stay High 149's tag was a lot more appealing than the average tag. Steven Payne Yeah, yeah. He had an arrow, right? STAFF 161 He had he had a S with the devil tail Steven Payne Oh with a devil tail. Yeah. STAFF 161 Which I adopted. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 His tag was was was vertical stack. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 And, um, he had different um, figurative things he added to it. Like he would cross his his H. With with a spliff. Right. Yeah, I like a lit spliff with a with a trail of smoke coming from it. And he had the stick figure The Saint character, The Smoker where he called it, with the halo, all that was bought with quotation marks, similar to what Super Cool used too Super Cool wasn't a dramatic drawing person. But embellishing the tag was, was is the primary thing I noticed with him with the Crown. Right. He drew the crown, he, he drew grammatical things, like Super Cool 223 he wrote a D, and exclamation point, and underlining, you know, or putting a ribbon under the 223. Drawing a cloud around the tag. So basically embellishing, that's a different, that's a different aspect of the signature era, again, the early Taki 183s and Joe 182s that's moving into more of the aesthetics and the artistic factor. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 Of graffiti writing. That's even before major large pieces on the trains. Large pieces on the trains didn't even come to' 72 and Super Cool did the first one. Kurt Boone Okay, on the train. Okay. STAFF 161 Yeah, Kurt Boone outside. STAFF 161 Yeah, yeah. Yeah so yeah. So, um, by 71, and even 70, you started seeing a few tags that would be coming on the exterior of the trains. Right. And so it started to build up now. A lot of people. Again, everything is time specific. And you got to understand the political and social factors that what happened happening in the Bronx. Steven Payne Yeah, STAFF 161 in in New York City, in the world at that time, why, why these things happen. And again, New York going through a fiscal crisis and stuff like that. Right. They weren't cleaning the trains. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 All right. Not no real maintenance. Right. And that became apparent, that became apparent when if you tagged a train in 1970 or something, and in 71, 72, you can see that same tag on the train that you've seen that the same time that I put on there. Like, almost two years ago, it's still there. So then how much maintenance could he have been doing, Steven Payne yeah. STAFF 161 Right. So that's why the factors. And the other factor. Right of the explosion of it was, and I always say it couldn't happen to anywhere else. But New York City. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 Right. And, and especially, you know, in the Bronx, Steven Payne yeah STAFF 161 When I say in the Bronx, as they say that's the birth of hip hop culture. In the area that devastated area that I came up in, right, with all of the misery and the dread that was happening there with the fires, the high infant mortality rate, the drug overdoses, the gang violence and stuff like that. The the arson, you know, Steven Payne yeah, STAFF 161 it was out of control. Those people that were living in it, and especially the youth, the youth, in that community still found the resolve, and the motivation and inspiration to create their own cultural foundation, they was able to create their own cultural foundation. And that's why I can't, you know, beyond me understand why I could I do understand why some people think that, that, that, that graffiti writing is not part of hip hop culture. It might not have been called that at the time. But it's still part of that youthful youth movement. It is plain to me maybe see now I understand that maybe if you were in certain neighborhoods, and you you just, you know, adopted, tagging writing your name, that maybe you might not have an affiliation with the emceeing and DJing because it wasn't happening in your, in your neighborhood. Maybe you listening to Led Zeppelin and Rolling Stones. And that's cool. But I was I was, I, you know, from the time that the Ghetto Brothers started jamming in my neighborhood, I got into all of that I've been into Jimi Hendrix. All of that you know what I'm saying? And, yeah, you know, Black Sabbath, you know, sure. I play guitar. I play guitar bass to this day. Steven Payne Okay. STAFF 161 Yeah. And I played in numerous bands and heavy metal, classic rock. You know, Santana, definitely, you know, and definitely Santana, who was the biggest one? You know, one of the major things that songs that they don't that the Ghetto Brothers were playing was Santana. Steven Payne Sure. STAFF 161 Is Latin rock band. So um, yes, I'm familiar with that music. And I've always loved that music. But I understand the music that was on the street in my community. Right. That was part of that youth movement, you youth culture movement that in compares, tagging. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 emceeing and DJing and a dance style called breaking? Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 Right. And basically, that put together in a package is called Hip Hop culture. Steven Payne Yeah, STAFF 161 I understand that totally. Right. And I understand where other people might not understand it, because it just wasn't in their community. Steven Payne Yeah, STAFF 161 right. But you got to understand I was in the heart, the heart of that seven mile square, where they say that those things manifested and became what is now known as hip hop culture. I was in, I grew up in that. Steven Payne Absolutely. STAFF 161 I have a full insight into why, where and how that happened. Steven Payne Yeah. Kurt Boone So when did you paint your first exterior? STAFF 161 Very good. So. Okay, so, um, so by 1970, right, there, again, like I said, I recognized that there was numerous people in my community that right on my block, not in community on my block, that were actual taggers I felt a responsibility to organize them. Right. And, and so we can be like, unified and what we're doing on that block. Steven Payne Yeah. Kurt Boone Okay. STAFF 161 All right. And that happened to happen to be other things I was involved in whatever, you know, more or less, you know, not to become victimized. Steven Payne Sure. STAFF 161 Right. Right. You know, you have so many other gangs and stuff and, you know, and hostilities from it was just that, you gotta understand a lot of a lot of the Bronx, Manhattan, New York, the country was segregated. Either it racially or with street gangs or whatever there's just boundaries, you just don't go over here and over here, whatever. And I'm talking about in the next block for you. Steven Payne Yeah, STAFF 161 even in the same community. My next block over there. That's dumb dudes over here. Oh, come on. They don't go on their block, and so forth. Unless you know what I'm saying you got permission to go over there, and so forth. Because like you know what you doing over here? it was, you know, because you just had the hostility going on. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 Right. And I always kind of like was dismayed with that, you know, that's not unification. It's like, divide and conquer type stuff to me, you know? Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 So when I had found out about the whole system of things, that there were people who were actively pursuing tagging, as a activity, not incidental to their environment. Now, prior to that, my tagging was just incidental to my environment, as I said, it was on the street, in my community. So I would tag because it's part of what people around here do. I gotta put my tag up too I'm a be part of this, I'm not gonna be left out I could tag too. And so forth I could tag and then I put my, my customized thing on it, with drawing stuff with the tag, you know, and then later on, I realized they had other people who was drawing things with they tag Sweet Dude and Stay High, you know, an El Marko 174. You know, And them guys could draw and things with their tag too. And so, um, so. But there was this, this whole ah ah system. I noticed, eventually, of taggers, who were tagging for the sake, and only for the sake of tagging alone, and having their tag saturated through the city. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 And the nucleus of that I noticed happens to be from riding the train back and forth to school. Right? Me and Danny and my younger brother, Adam, was the New York City transit system. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 Right, and so, slowly, and surely, I noticed that it started to leave from the interior, to the exterior of the trains. And that has to do with motion tagging. Right being in at a Station. Alright, so So some of my first exterior tags, was standing on Prospect Avenue, subway platform when the train pulled in. Right. I would wait for the train and once the train pulls in and stop was tag on the outside of the train, Steven Payne yeah, STAFF 161 with Markers. Right, and then eventually spray paint, right. It's called motion tagging. As the train, it pulls into the station, right stops to let passengers on and off, right, and then that know those few seconds while its there in the station, you can get your tag off and that that contributed to the speed of tagging. Steven Payne Okay, yeah, STAFF 161 that built out built up your, your propensity to tag real fast because you gotta to hurry up because the train gonna pull out the station. Alright, so that builds up your speed with tagging. So blue things happen. So, the Ebony Dukes. So again, um Danny, who was one of my closest peers. Right on on that street, living right next to the building right next door to me going to school with me. Right, his uncle again, the families were knew each other. His uncle, I started getting painting jobs with little hustling jobs with you know, you're ay, I'm going to do paint this apartment with me. You want to come and help me out paint today? Right? Yeah, you know, I want to paint you know, and get a little change and stuff like that. Yeah, actually, I'm gonna help you paint and I'm gonna learn something were painting too. I like to paint. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 And then I'm getting into paint now and spray paint. But you know, I'm saying I was painting. Go Karts. I was painting kites. I was painting because people got to realize that I was a kid that could draw something gang colors. Kurt Boone Yeah, yeah. STAFF 161 Right. So painting, right so anything with painting I was there. And Bertie was Bertie is his name. Right? So um Bertie said. Yo, come I'm gonna paint some apartments up here. Right? You want to come help out? You know, I give you a little something. All right. You can learn something. Right? And I did. And as he's painting, and I'm working with him I'm getting these war stories about this organization, this crew this gang that he was associated with from Harlem called the Ebony Dukes? Right? And I'm just getting amazed with the war stories. And so I'll become interested and, and the name, the Ebony Dukes it just has a ring to it that, you know, I said, I'd like to know what happened to it. And the people that was in it. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 And what's going on with that name? Did you preserve it? Steven Payne Yeah, STAFF 161 right, that's a historical and preserving, you know, things that were a part of the history as a, you just gonna let that name just go away. Next thing you know, he makes the point that a lot of the people are you know no longer in contact, when he says some of them are dead, some of them went to prison and lost contact. And, you know, so, but I'm still adamant about preserving the name. So I come up with, you know, eventually I come up with the idea. Because now that I'm learning that there's a system there's a system that is, you know, maybe not as as firm, as it eventually became at that point. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 But there's a system of youth that are going through the city, right? Deliberately to put up tags. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 Not as it was with me at that point. It's just part of my existence here in this neighborhood. But they would systematically go around and put up tags and started to notice that in the subway system, and on the buses, and so wanting to get away from the street gang environment, right after Black Benjie and so forth. Right. And such, you know, and everything and and what was going on with street gangs in the neighborhood and general, right. I believe Black Benjie was the conclusive thing. But there was things that happened before that. Yeah. Then I said had number one the Ghetto Brothers. Were not. Were not akin to graffiti tagging. Steven Payne Sure. Yeah, they Yeah, STAFF 161 I got that impression slowly. And that they didn't really, they weren't appreciative. Right, even though they had some stuff up too, let's say, Ghetto Brothers sons. Of certain certain division. Right. But in general, right. They, remember, they had three garbage cans as the center patch. Yeah. And they worked with the sanitation department to clean up empty lots and all that stuff in the community. And, and part of the look of decay of so to speak, was the tags that were in the neighborhood her in the graffiti. So I got the impression that the leadership in it wasn't for graffiti writing. Sure. So now, I'm coming to a crossroads. Like, why am I part of something that is not really for graffiti writing? Steven Payne Yeah, STAFF 161 right. But yet, I'm doing graffiti writing. And I'm like, taking like center stage on that street with graffiti writing with all these other kids on my block that's doing graffiti writing. So we got to organize under graffiti writing. And that's when I eventually asked Bertie. Cab I used that name that Ebony Dukes to make a graffiti club? And he didn't understand with graffiti club was, he said you know, I mean, you want to use it use it. But you know, Steven Payne yeah, STAFF 161 you know, you know, but you know, don't make another gang. Now you guys are concerned about being a gang. But I said it's not gonna be a gang. We're not gonna be a gang, you know, so we're gonna be a guys that do graffiti, writing? Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 Okay, you know? Okay. Do your thing. So that's in the spring of 1970. Right. I established the Ebony Dukes, GC standing for graffiti crew. So that happened in the spring of 1970. And so the people the first initial people that was in that was like seven people from Hewitt Place. Oh, yeah. So that was on myself. My brother Adam. And of course Danny who was next door who wrote Adam wrote AJ One, but at that time, I was Staff 161. 161st Street intersecting the street, on Hewitt Place? So Staff 161 Right. My brother Adam, who wrote AJ which is his initials for his government name, but it also stood for All Jive 161 he also wrote Adam, Adam 12. Kurt Boone Okay. STAFF 161 Right. Kurt Boone Like a cop. STAFF 161 Yeah, but everything was in the sitcom. Remember, you gotta understand, to see how early graffiti tagging was influenced by popular culture, especially stuff and things that were on TV and everything during that period. Steven Payne Sure. STAFF 161 Again, I say everything is time specific. And a lot of people discount that and not understand that was happening socially, politically and culturally of the time. influenced what eventually happened? Right. So Adam, right, myself, Adam, Danny next door, who started to write Dynamite 161. Steven Payne Okay, STAFF 161 right. And later on, he took on Dr. Soul One, right up the street from us. Right. What's Dub, right? Who lived on the end of Hewitt Place that was closer to Longwood Avenue. Steven Payne Okay, STAFF 161 right. D U B. No, yeah. Yeah. And so, um, eventually, he starts writing Topaz when I gave him that tag. Again here's my leadership role is coming in that I'm giving people tags now. And directing people with graffiti and stuff like that, you know, so, um, I'm kind of like, you know, assuming that role of the graffiti guy in the neighborhood. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 Right. Under that new title, the Ebony Dukes GC. Right. So Dub becomes Topaz. Right. All right. Um, Topaz One. And then up the street was Kay. Who lived on Hewitt Place near closer to almost like 150 or closer to the Longwood Avenue. Right, but on the other side from from from Topaz. Kenny's is writing Hot Sauce 575, which had happened to have been, I believe he's hit the building number he was he was on remember. Eight sets I'm 858. So further up, and further down really? is 575. So Hot Sauce 575 or H S 575 for short. Right, was his tag. And then right here on 156 feet on who would place again, right is Kenny, who was the the Puerto Rican kid? That was part of the crew. Right, Kenny? I'm sorry not Kenny but Cookie, Steven Payne cookie, STAFF 161 Cookie, we refer to him as we knew him on the street as right he starts to write King Kool 156, Right. King Kool 156. Right. Kurt Boone I love these names. Steven Payne Yeah STAFF 161 right. And then, um, okay. Kurt Boone And that's six African Americans and one Hispanic. STAFF 161 Yes. Yeah.Yeah. Okay. Um, and then, um, last but not least, um Paul, who was part of one of the bigger families or the oldest in one of the bigger families in the neighborhood. He was a Savage Skull. He started writing Super Slick 156 So that was the nucleus of the original. The Ebony Duke Crew, Steven Payne yeah. STAFF 161 Ebony Dukes GC crew that started there on the block. And eventually, we added all members from all over the Bronx, and, and into Manhattan, and into Brooklyn, in eventually, Queens and stuff, you know, Kurt Boone So where did membership cards come from? Because you would get memberships cards like boys, the Boys Club of America card. STAFF 161 Well, It was like, um, again, um, I started to pick up on things that were on that, um, I felt like we were left out at Steven Payne Yeah, STAFF 161 out of in those communities. And you had these exclusive clubs of the day, that or the whole idea of being in a club, and membership in a club was as seen as an honorary thing. Right, or, and to be excluded from that. Right? Or was a less than honorary thing. Steven Payne Yeah, STAFF 161 right. Yeah. Um, you know, you're not part of this, you know, you don't, you know, come to our standards of being part of this. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 Right. And one of the, the affirmations, or the credentials of being part of these special clubs is some kind of a badge, or identification. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 So, um, I wanted to, like, try to address that, right. And I came up with the idea of making membership cards. So I would hand draw, I would go to like, Woolworths and boost, or rack, these index cards, you know, index cards in the package with the lines. And, and, and color color. Felt Tip markers, and both package, felt tip markers. And I would hand draw membership cards and started to give them out. Kurt Boone Right away. or took a couple years before? STAFF 161 I did that, like, right away. Kurt Boone Wow, STAFF 161 I did that right away. Because here's the thing, right? We didn't have we weren't a outdoor street gang no more like that. So we didn't have colors? Steven Payne Sure. Yeah. STAFF 161 We didn't have we weren't wearing colored. So how do we identify ourselves? Other than the fact of our tag and we writing the tag? Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 Right. So I said, Well, okay. To certify your membership, their membership in the crew, this rep. Okay. It didn't happen immediately on the street. It started to happen. When, um, I started getting membership outside of the neighborhood. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 Right. And I had to, I felt it was the necessary for the existing membership, to know that the person that's saying that they're part of the crew can prove it by having my hand hand drawn membership card. Alright, so. So more or less akin to that. I'm certifying people. That is not we don't know, within our circle, yeah, that they're part of the crew. So I started drawing membership cards for people that were outside of our community. Steven Payne You know, if anyone still has one of the membership cards? STAFF 161 yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A couple of people on Fam and has one. Yeah, others, you know, from the Uptown crew that we had uptown. I stuck up past 180th Street. Steven Payne Sure, sure, sure. STAFF 161 Blade and Crotchy and, and Comic those guys, you know. Kurt Boone I want to try on your next next round. You want to get into some writers like playing? But we didn't speak much about the women in this, but I know a few women in the Ebony Dukes? STAFF 161 Yeah. Yeah. There was on the, on the street on the street that we was at, right, eventually. They were females? Yeah, you gotta understand again, everything is time specific. And, and certain things of that time era. That you know, like, ladies, were, you know, left out of the equation, you know, this is not for you, you know, this is for guys, man. We you ain't gonna do what we doing. Steven Payne Yeah, STAFF 161 you know. So, you know, you had that type of male chauvinistic type of mentality at the time that was, again, everything is time specific. But you had like the, what we refer to as the tomboy type girls, that was like, they could fight just as much as the dudes. Steven Payne Yeah, STAFF 161 so to speak, are all just as rough as that dudes, so to speak, and you know, and they would, you know, hell bent on that, you know, that we can do we you can do it better. Steven Payne Yeah. STAFF 161 Right. So, there was a few on the block right us. That was like that. One was Line 149 who lived in my building, right? Kurt Boone How do you spell that? STAFF 161 L I N E Steven Payne LINE okay. Kurt Boone Oh, Line 149. STAFF 161 Line 149 Kurt Boone 149 Okay, STAFF 161 all right. And there was a Sweet Tea 163. Right. Darlene. Yeah, who will became some of the first female affiliations and then later on, when we kind of branched out in the neighborhood. We had Kivu Kivu One, you know. Yeah. So, but it wasn't like a lot of females who were members at that time, but they were there. They were there. Kurt Boone Alright, so they know I'll let you go, Barbara, STAFF 161 and Eva 62 Okay, so they were basically obscure in the sense that I didn't see them a lot, but there was you know major female taggers right. That were around right during the period. Early signature era Steven Payne Yeah, STAFF 161 they didn't come in too much in the stylistic era, or the piecing era. Kurt Boone Were they members also? STAFF 161 No, they weren't they weren't part I don't remember them being part of any crew. Kurt Boone Any crew. okay. Yeah. Yeah, so I think what we're gonna do cuz you have to leave, we use have each artist to leave a tag for us for the library. Alright, great. All right, thank you. CC-BY-NC-SA (Creative Commons) video Content may be utilized only for non-commercial purposes so long as equal sharing privileges are preserved and the following attribution is included: "Courtesy of The Bronx Aerosol Arts Documentary Project, The Bronx County Archives at The Bronx County Historical Society Research Library." 0 https://viewer.mybcpl.org/viewer.php?cachefile=/render.php?cachefile= Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with STAFF 161, Part 1 Description An account of the resource Part 1 of an oral history recorded for the Bronx Aerosol Arts Documentary Project on February 23, 2022 with STAFF 161, a true pioneer of the graffiti arts movement in The Bronx, and the founder of the first Bronx graffiti crew, The Ebony Dukes Graffiti Club. In this oral history, STAFF 161 describes his time growing up in Harlem, Staten Island, and the South Bronx of the 1960s and 1970s and how the Bronx context especially shaped his and others' approach to graffiti during this time period. The interviewers are Dr. Steven Payne, librarian and archivist at The Bronx County Historical Society, and Kurt Boone, prolific documentarian of urban culture for the past 40 years. The Bronx Aerosol Arts Documentary Project is a project of The Bronx County Archives at The Bronx County Historical Society Research Library. This oral history is brought to you through the contribution of Stephen DeSimone, CEO/President of DeSimone Consulting Engineers. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bronx Aerosol Arts Documentary Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022.02.23 Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context OH-BAADP.20220223 graffiti STAFF 161 TED The Ebony Dukes